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Phoenix
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« Reply #40 on: 2011-09-13, 15:03 »

Lots of writing going on here... must get some free time to read it.  Slipgate - Surprised
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #41 on: 2011-09-13, 22:16 »

Boy phoenix, do you ever get days off ? Doomed
Who knew being a bird of terror & a programmer/coder was so time consuming. Slipgate - Laugh
« Last Edit: 2011-09-13, 22:37 by J3E125 » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: 2011-09-13, 23:34 »

As a tangent, there is a division of opinion on what the shambler's "coat" is.  Do you think it's skin or fur?

Fur.

I've seen a lot of really awesome looking HD updates that paint the Shambler naked. They look mighty interesting, but they don't compare to a well done coat of fur.
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fourier
 
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« Reply #43 on: 2011-09-14, 01:52 »

As a tangent, there is a division of opinion on what the shambler's "coat" is.  Do you think it's skin or fur?

Fur.

I've seen a lot of really awesome looking HD updates that paint the Shambler naked. They look mighty interesting, but they don't compare to a well done coat of fur.

This is decent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giL1oWmLWHk
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #44 on: 2011-09-14, 02:36 »

WOAH AWESOME!!!!! Slipgate - WTF
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Phoenix
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« Reply #45 on: 2011-09-14, 10:14 »

Boy phoenix, do you ever get days off ? Doomed

Nobody said being Phoenix was easy!
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Phoenix
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« Reply #46 on: 2011-09-14, 13:00 »

Ok, got to read stuff finally.  Neat ideas there.  Do like the Alpha shambler concept.  The idea of shamblers toting weaponry...  I can see a kind of shambler variant that has a perforator cybernetically grafted onto its arm.  Smaller, faster, not as tough and no lightning attack but getting chaingunned with super nails would be just ouch.  Oh yeah, up close you get clawed or smacked with the gun.  Shades of Q2, I know. Slipgate - Wink

fourier:  Doom 3 I didn't find scary in the way some people did.  Blood just does not bother me since I'm used to seeing it, and darkness and shadows isn't too scary.  I suppose being predatory in nature some things don't bother me that would just creep the average human out.  The Hell portion of Doom 3 I actually loved because the level design was flat out superb.  I could see how much effort was put into that.  As for the Archviles, they can definitely be killed, and you want to kill them quickly since they summon other monsters, then when you're distracted they launch one vicious fire attack.  I recommend a fully-charged BFG shot or several rockets.  If you can catch one spawning in you can actually chainsaw them in the face and kill them rather quickly.  If you screw up they'll bitch slap you though so be careful.

I'd say the scariest moment I had playing a game was the original Doom.  I had just reached E2M8, Tower of Babel.  I went through the door, shot a Lost Soul with a rocket, heard this ungodly loud roar, then this mechanical stomping.  I did not want to leave the room.  Original DOS Doom had the sound mechanical stomping at full volume regardless of the source's position.  All I knew was it was loud and I could not tell where it was or what it was from the audio.  I had turned away from the door and was picking up some rocket boxes preparing to deal with whatever the noise was and the next thing I know BOOM! BOOM! Red screen and I'm !@#!%@# DEAD.  Dead from 200/200.  I never saw what hit me, which startled and confused me.  I don't scare much from the usual things that scare humans, but I do startle from loud and sudden sounds.  The "look at what killed you" camera rotation didn't help because all I could see after my view rotated was the nearest rocket box that I had not picked up.  So after reloading the level I make it outside and find out this monster (the Cyberdemon) has a freaking rocket launcher.  Not so scary after that, but I'd have to say this was the most memorable scare I've ever had in a game.
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Kingu
 

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« Reply #47 on: 2011-09-14, 16:07 »

Not a hairy one but this is nice thing, a real Shambler.   Slipgate - Grin
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« Reply #48 on: 2011-09-15, 16:36 »

I think that the Shambler should return its basic silhouette, but be larger. I want every random encounter with a Shambler to feel almost like a boss fight in and of itself. Here are a few fan drawings I've come across over the years that illustrate the point well.





And for comparison, here's one with no fur... and eyes. Still pretty beastly looking, but not the same in my opinion.


Oh... and the scariest rendition of 'em all... Slipgate - Laugh
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fourier
 
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« Reply #49 on: 2011-09-15, 19:25 »

Phoenix: Yeah, I know I was just describing my initial reaction.  After that, I've taken to the jump in the face, goad a claw attack, dodge, nail them with shotgun, repeat.  I used this technique through most of the game for most situations, including the hell knights.  Ducking the commando's tentacle arm works as well. 

I think the commando's are my most hated enemy in the game.  All the other monsters can be dealt with without taking any damage (unless you're surrounded and swarmed), but I always take damage against them (armed and unarmed... err tentacled).  Maybe it's because I really never used the rocket launcher.

~Va^^pyrA~: Yes!  It should feel stressful and like a major battle.  I love the pictures; even the last one.  That must be Mrs. Shambler, and now we know why he's so pissed off.
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #50 on: 2011-09-16, 03:56 »

Woah! Those shamblers are AWESOME. I think they look too tough but that's just me, the third one looks the most accurate. *Stares at "Mrs. Shambler"* Ehhh. Slipgate - Shifty
« Last Edit: 2011-09-16, 03:58 by J3E125 » Logged

Phoenix
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« Reply #51 on: 2011-09-16, 10:12 »

fourier:  I've found the best way to deal with the tentacled commandos is to rush them to point blank, duck and stay down when they throw the tentacle, and immediately chainsaw them in the crotch.  They always seem to throw the tentacle first so I've never had problems with this technique.

I use the rocket launcher on the commandos carrying chainguns.  They're too dangerous to go toe-to-toe in a slugging match so I just pop out, rocket, pop back behind cover, and repeat.  Two direct rocket hits does the job.

Those are some messed up Shambler pics.  I'm not certain that I want to know what was going through the artist's mind on that last one...
  Slipgate - WTF
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #52 on: 2011-09-28, 04:00 »

I don't think I'll be very busy tomorrow, so I'll put some goodies in the wishlist tomorrow.... And we tokin 'bout weapons, lol.  Slipgate - Thumbs up!
*Dips nails in lava* Slipgate - Ninja
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #53 on: 2011-09-30, 00:07 »

WEAPONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sipgate - Evil Slipgate - WTF
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Axe- The last resort. Face it -- going toe-to-toe with the uglies in Quake demonstrates all the good sense of a man parachuting into an alligator farm

Shotgun- The basic gun, to which all other guns compare favorably.

Double Barreled- A worthy weapon with three minor drawbacks: first, it uses up 2 shells per blast; second, it's slow; third, its shot pattern is very loose at long range. But in general, once you find this puppy, the other shotgun starts rusting from disuse.

Nailgun- A two-barrel dingus that prickles bad guys with armor-piercing darts, technically termed "nails"

Super Nailgun/Perforator -The great equalizer. Four cyclic barrels that hose out spikes like crazy. Pro: foes drop like flies. Con: eats ammo like popcorn.

Grenade Launcher- Thumps neat exploding bombs into the air. You can even bounce a grenade off the wall or floor. When a grenade hits someone, it explodes. If it misses, the bomb sits on the floor for a moment, then explodes. Even though I sometimes bounce grenades into myself, this gun's still my favorite.

Rocket Launcher- For when a grenade positively, absolutely, has to be there on time.

Thunderbolt- Try it. You'll like it. Use the same technique as watering your rosebush.

New Weapons Sipgate - Evil
Shiskabob-An inferno packed in a sword; now you'll be the one laughing at the deathknight.
Use- Picked up later in the game, the shishkabob is a powerful melee weapons, the downside- swinging it constantly will put the fire out, leaving you with a plain blade.

Spitfire-When you want "spazzaz" entering a baddies torso; just be sure not to impale your self.....
Use-When picked up, it will become your trustiest weapon- basically a energized nailgun

Sharpshooter-A pressurized fletchet with one goal- FRAG FAST.
Use-Encountered rarely in the game, the sharpshooter works well for a sniper

B.F.T. 2k- For when everyone in the kitty pool has to POSITIVELY ABSOLUTELY die; be sure you've hired a janitor.
Use- The bfg of this game, it will disinigrate everyone within range, if it hits the pool-get ready for a blood bath.

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« Reply #54 on: 2011-11-14, 05:16 »

This thread makes me happy  Slipgate - Thumbs up!
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death_stalker
 

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« Reply #55 on: 2011-11-14, 10:15 »

All of that would be awesome! Great ideas guys.


Oh my... Death is still lurking lol. I know that is coming lol.  Doom - Love Still need to reinstall so i can play again. heh
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #56 on: 2011-11-15, 23:57 »

Hey no problem, these people know what there doing  Slipgate - Thumbs up!
 Slipgate - Ninja
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Gnam
 
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« Reply #57 on: 2012-03-27, 21:49 »

Just wanted to mention about the Railgun hate going on the first page: yes, the Railgun is conducive to "cowardly" sniping behavior, but from a skill perspective, the Shaft deals much more damage per second via the very same hitscan properties, combined with a much less-skilled, spray-and-pray function. If the Railgun is to be favored by n00bs who like the camp and snipe, then the Shaft is favored by n00bs who would rather no even aim at all.

I can understand including the shaft in future Quake games for pure nostalgia and aesthetic purposes, but gameplay-wise it's really a much worse hitscan weapon in every way than the Rail. I wouldn't want it any stronger than the Q3 LG, if that (100 damage per second would be fine with me).

In any case, I'd be in favor of a Slipgate-themed Quake 5, as the Strogg universe has been a bit played out, and the "Lovecraftian" gothic/steampunk look of Q1 has always been pretty unique and underrated.

It bears mentioning that I nice alternative to the Railgun would be a single-shot high-speed projectile weapon, similar to the CPMA BFG (which was totally different from the vQ3 BFG, with 1250ms reload and no splash). The main problem with the CPMA BFG was that the fire rate was too slow for a projectile that only travels 2000ups; 800ms would have been much more reasonable and balanced; given that it's essentialy a double-speed rocket with no splash.

This weapon could take the form of a spear/harpoon/stake gun, and the use of a high speed projectile over a hitscan one would be more unique and consistent with Quake's low emphasis of hitscan weapons. Leading FTW.

Another alternative to the Railgun would be to make the Shaft into a gothic Lightning Gun (re: UT2004); with 70-80 damage except during headshots that would still provide a nice nerf to what would otherwise be a Railgun reskin.

Lastly I gotta mention that one of the most important elements in a future Quake game would be to reach out to mainstream gamers in a major way, without actually compromising any of Quake's core gameplay.

One of the most fundamental ways to do this is to introduce visual elements to explain the gameplay conceptually, and cut down in seemingly-pointless idiosyncrasies.

Quake's movement has never made ANY sense to outsiders. A simple way to address this would be to outfit slipgate soldiers with some sort of steam/rocket/hydraulic-powered footgear to explain their jumping behavior. If aircontrol is featured, then each boot could fire individually during airtime to show how the player is able to turn in mid-air. This could also provide a sound cure which is more dignified and cooler than characters constantly yelling "HURGH! HURGH! HURGH!" as they fly around the map.

I also think the game has to make a conscious effort to avoid "crappy old FPS" stereotypes. Even if it is slipgate-themed, the game has to figure out ways to look gothic without decking the entire world in brown and grey hallways. The main hero can't be a bald space marine.

I'd go so far to say that the Rocket Launcher shouldn't even be called as such. Give it a pet name like "Devastator", or something functional like "Concussion Rifle". If it's called "Rocket Launcher", then people will expect it to act like a real life RPG made for disabling tanks and vehicles, and write it off as "weak" because it doesn't kill everyone in the room with one blast, unrealistic because it can fire many times in a row quickly, the game will be written off as crappy and unrealistic,

Lastly, real effort needs to go into the console controls. The idea that twitch shooters are unplayable on a gamepad is a myth. With its light crosshair magnetism and turn acceleration setting, UT3 plays almost as well on 360 as PC. With a new 360 pad and the right Xpadder config, I can trash CPMA bots through level 80. PC games usually play like shit on consoles because the developers simply don't put enough effort into it; simply slapping a bunch of auto-aim and a single sensivity setting doesn't cut it.

The reason I mention all this stuff is because Quake CAN be made palattable to a larger audience if Id makes an effort to avoid idiosyncracies and stereotypes which aren't necessary and turn off newcomers in a big way. Without any effort to go after a larger audience, the same thing will happen to Q5 as Doom 3, Q4, UT3, and Quake Live - the same tiny hardcore audience plays the game for 15 minutes, and then the community falls apart, there's no one to play with, the game gets forgotten, and everyone goes back to playing Q3DM6 and Q3DM17 ad nauseum.
« Last Edit: 2012-03-27, 22:15 by Gnam » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: 2012-03-28, 01:34 »

The idea that twitch shooters are unplayable on a gamepad is a myth.

No, it's not. Slipgate - Tongue

Games today have no longevity because they are deliberately locked down. Modding is all but dead in gaming today. Whereas pay-to-play DLC and annual sequels are all the rage. That's what you get when you make a game that has mass appeal. Garnering a broad audience is of little use if said audience isn't right for the game to begin with.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #59 on: 2012-03-28, 09:00 »

The Thunderbolt aka Shaft requires getting up close and personal to deal damage, whereas the railgun is a one-shot kill weapon.  I remember some old games on House of Chthon during Gen's early development where I got kill after kill, in the open, by standing on the Railgun spawn and just shooting people across the map.  In the original Quake, it was HARD to get frags with the Thunderbolt owing to the fact that by the time you dealt one hit with the lightning you'd be bounced to the ceiling by a rocket.  The kickback made it very hard to keep the beam on someone.  Also, the Thunderbolt only fires 10 times a second, so it's more "gappy" than the Q3 lightning gun, which fires 20 times a second.  Remove the lightning bolt graphic and Q1's Thunderbolt is basically a pinpoint precision short-range machinegun that deals 35 damage per hit.  In the hands of an amateur the Thunderbolt is hard to use.  In the hands of an expert it can kill, but if we're talking pure Quakeworld-style deathmatch it's not nearly as much of a factor as the rocket launcher.  As for doing a Thunderbolt in Quake 5, it doesn't necessarily have to work just like in Quake 1.  Single player an deathmatch can work differently.  There's all sorts of creative things you can do with electrical weapons beyond simple hitscan.

"Creative".  That's a word that gets lost on the "modern" gaming community.  Too many games are carbon copies of each other.  We don't need more tactical shooters like MW[insert number here].  A fantasy shooter like Quake with a gothic horror theme is fine as it is.  Trying to make the game down to appeal to a "larger audience" is exactly why a lot of people - namely old-school gamers - got mad with Id over Rage and is what seriously hurt Duke Nukem Forever, well besides being stuck in development hell.  Both games were panned for Consolitis.  In the case of DNF it was the two-gun limit, regenerating health and linear level design.  For Rage it was the lack of control over graphics and not taking advantage of the PC's inherent flexibility in that regard.  The whole reason trying to reach a larger audience is that the CoD crowd will only play CoD.  Trying to copy the mechanics in that franchise to attract those players is just going to make everyone else unhappy.  Making Quake 5 a straight improvement over the original Quake is what's needed.  If it plays like CoD it will absolutely suck.  Make Quake 5 a kick ass PC game.  Screw the consoles.  Port it if you want, but make it absolutely awesome for the PC and people will play it.

Now as for the CoD hate on my part, I've maintained this about FPS games and any kind of combat sim games from the beginning:  Attempting too much realism will kill the fun factor.  If it's a sci-fi or fantasy setting you only need enough realism for the gamer to understand the rules of the environment.  Nobody cared that the Doomguy could run 56mph or that you never reloaded your pistol, or why there were chainsaws on Mars.  We played because there was a freaking chainsaw in the game to cut demons up with!  Quake, Quake 2... you name it.  Big guns, bad ass monsters, interesting environments - that's what we liked.  Why the hell do I want a game where one stray bullet to the chin kills me and I have to restart from a stupid checkpoint just because "That's how it's done on consoles", or the guy runs out of breath after climbing half a flight of steps with a backpack full of gear because that's "realistic"?  I'm really tired of this mindset that action games can't be like action games used to be.  I can still play Doom and have an absolute blast even though I've played it over and over.  I never even liked the original Quake, but I'd rather play that than the crap that's "popular" today.
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