Wirehead Studios

One of a bajillion versions of the story here (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/05/30/doom-3-bfg-edition-brings-hell-to-360-ps3-pc-this-fall-with/).

In short: Doom 3, its expansion and a new episode called "The Lost Mission" with remastered textures, 3D support, a "silky smooth framerate," an updated checkpoint system for PC, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3.

The flashlight is now armor-mounted, so you never have to lower a gun to see where you're going.

Doom and Doom 2 are also part of the package, so Final Doom still gets no console love.

Hits this fall. Thoughts?

 Not much worth on PC other than the new Pak. Consoles, on the other hand, It's worth a try.

Checkpoint system?  Seriously?  I can understand this on the console versions, but if it has no quicksave on the PC it will get a lot of well-deserved hate.  I despise checkpoint-only saves.

Oh look, another attempt to cash in on older games by re-releasing it...

Call me bitter but I dunno, with stuff like this I only think it's lazy to port a game to a newer system and only dick around with the graphics to make it look better, The fact that they're making a new level/area/whatever does make up for it a little but I think that companies who do this stuff have no right to charge anything over say... $15-$20 unless there is a lot of new content.

I'm be curious to see what the remastered textures and lighting look like. There are already plenty of mods available to achieve more modernized aesthetics. It'd be nice to have an official update however, packaged and ready to go. The same rings true with the mounted flashlight.

Really, this is just an excuse to give console kiddies and updated experience in preparation for Doom 4's eventual release. No one else really needs to be reminded about Doom, after all.

I might consider grabbing it as a budget title. It's been long enough that playing through the game again might be worthwhile with some refreshed graphics. Certainly the all new levels are intriguing, though I doubt will amount to much. It's just a shame they didn't work one of those co-op mods into the mix as well.

I suppose all we can do is hope that the new mission pack is closer to Quake 4's more open, action-oriented approach to level design than Doom 3's ultra-constricted, tripwire-and-monstercloset-driven attempt at horror.

Eh, personally I prefer a good checkpoint system to quicksaves. Saving anywhere is just too abuseable; you get people clearing 1 room, saving, walking to the next room, saving, clearing it, saving, walking to the next room, saving...It makes the whole game feel watered down just knowing it's an option. I think being set back by a defined degree - whether it's the beginning of a level or only half way back - is an important part of the challenge, a significant punishment for your death, particularly given that FPS never have limited lives or "game over".

In short, quicksaves are for pussies.

That's not to say that many games don't have flawed checkpoint systems though. Halo's springs to mind; they give you too many, and since you can't choose the timing yourself, it saves at horrible points in the middle of an ambush, or when you're about to drive off a cliff. I think Bioshocks criochambers, set at specific intervals, and requiring the player to deliberately enter at his convenience to save, it more on point.

Where's the problem in letting the player have the responsibility for (ab)using the quicksaves? If you're a wuss, play like a wuss; if not, don't. If you destroy your own enjoyment of the game by exploiting a feature, you've only yourself to blame. A little self-discipline goes a long way... :]

Quicksaves are useful, for me, because I don't want my games ruling my life (too much). If a game forces me to choose to replay a section or not quit whenever I want to, then that game presents an unnecessary dilemma.

I don't think quicksaves are a gamebreaking feature, I suppose my main point is that checkpoint systems have their own advantages, particularly for the hardcore, and bashing a product over it when the product hasn't even seen the light of day yet is rather premature.

On the other hand, unless BFG Edition gets a major overhaul before Fall, I'm afraid amateur fan efforts will still provide far more substantial visual enhancements for free, which is kinda pathetic given iD and Doom 3's groundbreaking reputation for visuals.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/sikkmod/images/random-roe3#imagebox
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/another-bunch-of-drooling-doom-3-screenshots-proof-that-mods-can-take-pc-games-to-new-heights/
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=347262

On that note, I am absolutely boycotting all Capcom titles until their next Street Fighter "HD" re-re-re-release looks like this:

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=139727.0

FPS shooters started on the PC.  Early FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Blake Stone, Duke Nukem 3D... you found health packs, carried an arsenal, saved where you wanted, and then along comes COD and HALO and now you carry two freaking guns, your health regenerates, and the game saves where it wants to instead of where the player wants to, and there's hints all over the place.  Maps are linear and half the game is scripted.  Checkpoints are a direct result of console porting.  They do NOT belong in Doom 3 for the PC anymore than regenerating health or a 2 weapon limit would.  I am getting rather fed up with PC game makers catering to the console crowd and I cannot believe that someone's on this board, which is dedicated to nostalgic game play, arguing in favor of checkpoints. 

You say this after quoting me?  That better not be a personal swipe.  I'll tell you what's for pussies:  Regenerating health, aim-assist, cannon-fodder NPC's, automatic radar and danger hints.  I'd love to see someone that's played only COD try to get through Wolfenstein 3D on Death Incarnate, then throw them into a Quakeworld deathmatch with some old-school fraggers.  CONSOLES are for pussies.  :shout:

Quick saves were awesome.. in all games, not just FPS's. Sierra adventures without quick saves? No thanks. Baldur's Gate series without quick saves? I'd probably play it because the games were so good, but it would still annoy me (see below for my thoughts on many console/modern RPGs). Doom or Quake without them? Same as with BG, really.

Having to watch the same cutscene.. or hear/read the same dialogue.. or play through a trivial portion of the game.. to get to the section that gave you trouble.. numerous times.. would get really old really fast. And yes, the crappy save system is why I don't see why so many people loved the FF series so much. It was tedious and annoying when you died. Thankfully there are emulators out there now to quell that problem, so I can finally not get as annoyed over stupid stuff. The modern games aren't nearly as bad in that regard, but I've noticed that more checkpoints get crammed into areas to the point that it may as well have just allowed quick saving.. and hell, it's probably worse because it saves in places I probably never would have if I were allowed to on my own.

I would say I'm dedicated to quality play more so than nostalgia. I enjoy games like Doom and Quake because they're good, not because they're old, and I dislike games like COD and Halo because they're bad, not because they're new.

Ultimately, I think checkpoints are the least of modern games' problems. What really brings them down is bad weapon mechanics, bad AI, and bad level/scenario design. Survival and performance-based play have been an aspect of games since before FPS. There was a time when in order to play level 7, you had to be good enough to first blow through levels 1-6 in one sitting. I see good checkpoint systems as a worthy compromise between the two; you can save, but you have to be able to survive in between the checkpoints. That doesn't mean the game has to constantly save for you wherever it wants.

Just curious - did System Shock 1&2 have save anywhere, or save spots as in Bioshock? I think you could find a PC-based origin for the good checkpoint systems in the world.

Of course not, I've never seen you play campaigns, so how could I judge your ability at them? In any case I haven't forgotten your success in virtually all 1v1 encounters we've had in Generations.

As for 2 weapon limits, I actually think that could work in a modern Doom game, for the same reason you enjoyed iron sights and realistic recoil in Legendary. In order to create horror, you have to instill immersion and believability, and being able to effortlessly carry 8-10 weapons in your back pocket compromises that. It wouldn't even need to be 2 a weapon limit, it could be 3-4, particularly if many of them were designed especially compactly, or supported multiple ammo types. After all, even in the original iD games, after mastering the optimal places to use each weapon, many of us probably stick to our 2 favorites a good deal of the time. A shotgun and chaingun can get you through most of Doom without the dire need for other weapons.

Overall I think it's important not to let our love of Id's games blind us. If we write off every aspect related to newer games as totally abhorrent, it stops us from separating the mechanics that truly ruin modern games from those mechanics which might be beneficial if used properly.

I'd say the ideal solution would be for designers to exclude trivial annoying cutscenes, dialog, and other portions from the game in the first place. Morever, checkpoints can easily be placed after the cutscenes and dialog with the option to watch to rewatch them if you forgot, or just allow the player to always skip dialog/cutscenes whenever he/she wants to.

Personally I never found the save points of FF1-6 to be much of a problem (the placement of checkpoints and cutscenes definitely got bad after that, but those games were also just mostly bad). I also generally play through Doom and Quake by only saving once at the beginning of each level, and just collect everything over when I die as punishment, rather than reloading the save. There have also always been those who would rather speed run the game with various restriction to optimize the the challenge...point being that play without quicksaves is an equally valid option, and the lack thereof is not immediate reason to hate a game.

At the end of the say, the biggest drawbacks to BFG Edition will be the same as original Doom 3; the environments are ultra-constricted and ultra-linear, invisible walls block monsters from chasing you down, the weapons are serviceable at best, and the designers were too lazy to conceive and build entryways for the monsters to attack from through through most of the game, instead dropping monsters into predictable locations via a hideously slow spawn animation ad nauseum. Were BFG Edition to correct any of those flaws, I'd gladly accept whatever silly checkpoint system they decided to slap in there, or accept no saves at all.

Too bad it won't. We just have to accept that games today are heavily flawed and rarely worth paying attention to. If you want a good one, you have to make one yourself, or mod the bad parts out of someone else's game.

I suppose I'm just nostalgic for the old good games.  ;)

No argument from me there.

The only problem with this is, as Tabun said, time.  Some people don't have a lot of time to dedicate to play, and quicksave lets you just up and leave whenever you want and pickup again where you left off.  That's a good compromise between real life and game time.  I understand there is a question of skill level but when playing a single-player game, who are you trying to impress?  It's not like an old arcade machine where you have a high score to beat, a rather short and difficult game, and no way to save at all.

I didn't think it was, I just had to throw that out there.  ;)

It could work in a horror-themed game, but Doom has too much nostalgia behind it and it would evoke the same reaction a lot of people had to Duke Nukem Forever having a two weapon limit.  One game weapon limits did work OK with was F.E.A.R.

That's pretty much how Episode 1 was played - lots of shotgun and chaingun, and the occasional rocket.  The bigger guns - plasma and BFG9000 - were individually introduced in the next two episodes.  Part of this went back to the marketing strategy at the time.  Shareware gave you a good taste of what was there, the later episodes gave you stuff you couldn't get in the shareware version.

That's one thing I don't like about a lot of modern games is the overuse of cut scenes.  An occasional cut scene that advances a plot point is fine, but every time you mean a new freaking monster?  I remember in Quake the first time you met a fiend it just jumped in your face.  Same with the headcrabs in Half-Life.  My very first encounter with the Doom cyberdemon was memorable.  Too many cut scenes take the suspense away.

I actually modded the weapons in Doom 3 and that's the only way I play it now.  I tightened the shotgun spread (serious WTF id) and reduced the damage so it was more inline with the Doom 1 shotgun, sped up the plasma projectile speed to match the original Doom, and made all the guns fire from the muzzle instead of the crosshair to make up-close kills a bit more graphically realistic.  That still can't fix the monster AI problems, like Trites following a player path instead of crawling up walls and obstacles to get at you, or Pinky demons not being able to attack you just because you're up on a crate.  Don't get me wrong, I love Doom 3's atmosphere and the Hell level was visually amazing.  Id could have done much more with the design.

That's why I keep hoping for a Quake 1 reboot.  Keep the best parts of classic Q1 game play but make it creepy as hell and don't give the players any hints.

Funny I should come across this thread now, after coming off the back of some bloke on Doomworld bitching about the lack of cutscenes and other modern features in Doom 2 mods ... yeah ...

AFAIC there is no realistic reason not to have quicksaves. If it was possible in Tomb Raider 2 on the PS1, then it's possible on today's systems.

But, yeah, when it gets to the stage where dying in a game actually takes effort (Prey, Borderlands and Rage, I'm looking in your direction) then all hope for a proper challenge is lost. Thank goodnes for all of those bonkers bullet-hell shooters keeping my interest in consoles alive.

Borderlands... I don't know how many times I died trying to take on certain enemies before I had advanced up in level.  First Alpha Scag I ran into and first time I took on Bonehead was not fun.  I'd get them almost dead and get hit by a stray bullet or a lucky swipe.  Same thing first time I took on crabworms in the cave.  I was following the plot line too much and not exploring enough in the beginning.  After a while though it became pretty easy to dominate just about everything once you find a few good weapons.  The only exception is Mad Moxxi's Underdome Riot since all the enemies spawn at the same level as you.  You can either grind 20 levels for hours on end and hope you don't die, or find someone of lower level than you to host and mop the floor with the bad guys.

Rage was indeed quite easy, especially the vehicular combat.  About the only way you'd die is if you ran up to a grenade and tried to hatch it.  Flipping yourself over the field goals was kind of fun though.

Long post ahead...


Final DOOM was released for the PlayStation.

Also, the new episode featured in DOOM II for XBLA is very Final-DOOM-like during the latter half.


Going off of this link (http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/5/30/3051918/doom-bfg-edition-details), it seems like the checkpoint save system will compliment the existing save features.  Also, I recall the Xbox version of DOOM 3 featuring level saves in addition to the ability to save anywhere.  Perhaps, it will be similar if not the same?


Yeah, I more or less agree with you there even though I will probably wind up purchasing it anyway.  (I am something of a collector.)  Let's hope the Steam version of DOOM 3 gets a free patch or that we can at least purchase the new content separately.


It'd be nice to see some of the Resurrection of Evil content make its way into the main game but I doubt we will be that lucky.  Regarding co-op, the Xbox port of DOOM 3 featured co-op out of the box but Resurrection of Evil did not sadly.  (I am still clinging to that small sliver of hope, however.)


I will let that comment slide because you were obviously heated when you posted that.  Needless to say, I disagree.


I am fine with quick-saves so long as they are not the only method of saving game progress in a particular game.  I have, on more than one occasion, permanently sporked myself over by relying on them.  (I am a little obsessive-compulsive so I tend to abuse quick-save systems.)


You and me both.  The DOOM 3 engine was perfect for a reboot.  I guess the closest we'll have for now is the Shambler's Castle mod (http://www.moddb.com/mods/shamblers-castle).

Wait, nearly every game is for 'pussies'. Except IWTBTG (http://kayin.pyoko.org/iwbtg/). Let's beat that first, then laugh at everything else. ;]

  I just realized the only reason they're releasing Doom is to get more people on the id "train", particularly console users. So if this sells well, we could see a Doom 4 very soon. This sounds like an ultimatum to me.

Never seen so much beeing discusses just bout the quicksave feature :) IMO i dont mind quicksave at all but i can also see the point in the checkpoint system aswell.

As i love the old style FPS type of games i certainly NOT dislike the new ones thought, i believe modern fps bring games to a certain level that werent possible in the ol days, so scripted events makes things more fun i dont see the reason to dislike this? :) i recall the cyberdemon event in doom 3..now that's the type of "events" i like.

Of course i dont like this "duck and regain health" type of system i prefer the one when you activly need to find health packs (which sometimes could annoy you when you played coop and your mate hogging every item/weapon in game ;))

Regarding Halo, we had regenreative shields however if you lost health you had to get an health pack this worked like a charm in halo 1 thought they had to "ruin" it and replace it with a regen shield type only for halo 2..

Anyways for final words: I like the old school games but i dont mind the modern fps either, and it really doesnt matter if it's on console or PC, same shit diffrent..ehr controller! ;) Only reason i see to favor the PC over the console is general mod support is PC only.

@Tab: That's nothing compared to IWBTFG (http://www.moddb.com/games/i-wanna-be-the-fangame/downloads/iwbtfg-beta-version-20) :P

@Reboot: True, although the PS3 version of UT3 supported mods, to a degree.

Yeah, I've been thinking about doing the same thing for when my GF and I beat Final Doom and have nothing left to co-op....coming from Brutal Doom, Doom 3's weapons will feel like a horrible let down. I made my own shotgun mods back when Doom 3 was released, but what I'd really like is to mod the machinegun to function more like an assault rifle - with serious recoil, semi-auto mode, and headshot kills on zombies. Likewise, the chaingun could use a gigantic boost in firerate - how did Id manage to make it SLOWER than the standard MG?

It'd be tough to get the AR recoil system right as that's a lot more complex that just changing a few values, but a few Doom 3 mods have attempted it, so it shouldn't be impossible to peice the code together. If it were possible to use these modded weapons in Classic Doom 3, complete with reloads, it'd be badass.

Indeed, I hope to god developers eventually realize the folly of exerience point-based challenge. Borderlands' co-op format and sprawling overworld were great fun, but shooting enemies in the head repeatedly while they walk back and forth in front of a crate, firing randomly and yelling "LOSIN' BLOOD!", isn't challenging even if it takes 5 minutes to wear down all their HP.

I think Rage deserves credit for its challenge level by comparison, as it's essentially the same game as Borderlands, only without the experience system. The enemies in Rage are a lot more competent - dodging side to side when they rush you and taking cover much more effectively in ranged combat. This method of challenge makes for a superior combat experience all around, and if Rage had only included co-op for it's full campaign it would have been hands down a superior title in all respects.

I disagree with your disagreement! :slippy_thumb:

I'm always heated, I'm Phoenix!  :D
I primarily made that remark as a counter to Gnam's criticism of quicksaves.  People can play what they want, I just dislike the influence that consoles are having on PC games.

 The reasons that the PC doesn't sell anymore is because of the number pirated copies of games are downloaded per year. I read in an article somewhere that the copies sold to illegal downloads of Crysis 1 was 1 TO 9.

Piracy is little more than a scapegoat for lazy corporations. It doesn't matter if it's music, movies, or video games. Pirates were never and probably will never be customers. Companies need to stop wasting money on trying to prevent the inevitable through copyright protections. It only hinders real, paying customers from fully enjoying their products.

For D3 and RoE, I almost entirely use SG and MG, and I guess grenades.  I only use other weapons when my ammo is getting somewhat low on the other stuff (which is basically never in D3, but more often in RoE).  Just played through both again about a month ago.  I don't play nightmare, since I don't like the deteriorating health (why didn't they have a mode with the increased damage but without dropping health?).

The only hard part throughout the entire game is I think in RoE.  You go down an elevator and an Arch Vile spawns along with 3 (maybe 2) hell knights in a cramped area around the elevator shaft.  That's the only place I've actually died (blew myself up shooting the damned things -- pun!).  Err wait it's gotta be D3 because I think I remember having the soul cube and using it on the archvile.

D3 is pretty easy in veteran mode when really the only people I take damage from are the zguards or commandos (much better at dealing with them without taking damage this last time around) and occasionally a revenant.

Personally, I like the cramped D3 for single player atmosphere.  It would be crappy for multiplayer.  I only wish there were more monsters and a harder difficulty without the degenerating health (i guess it's enough to mod if I cared to do it).

I've maintained this from the start.  Companies look at pirated copies as "lost sales".  The logic is typical corporate backwards thinking.  It's not a lost anything because you didn't sell it to begin with, and with someone that is hell bent on pirating it's a "will never buy".  They need to factor out the pirates and deal with reality instead of playing stupid games with the sales numbers.

Then there's individuals like myself who don't have $60 to throw down toward every new game that comes around.  I'm going to wait until something hits about $20 to buy a copy.  It means I buy late, which means I don't get included in the "how many bazillions were we supposed to make on this but didn't?" calculation because, while I am buying the game, I'm not buying it during the time period that the corporate investors care about.

I vary my weapons a lot.  After I modded the plasma projectile velocity to match the original Doom projectile speed (not the gun's refire speed, I left that alone) I use it a lot.  I found it's the most effective thing against Lost Souls and Revenant rockets since the plasma has a bounding box.  This makes it easier to clip the Lost Souls and Revenant rockets while in flight.  I found the best use for the chainsaw against the tentacle commandos.  If you crouch right as they're getting ready to throw the tentacle you can duck the tentacle and chainsaw them in the nuts without taking any damage.  I use the rocket launcher on the chaingunner commandos and the chaingun is very effective on the Mancubus at closer ranges.  At long range I use rockets and plasma, like around the smasher in the Hell level.  I also have a tendency to rush the Archviles as they spawn in and chainsaw them in the face.  That one encounter in the elevator with the Archy and two Hell Knights is where I just BFG the sporkers.  If I can't get in close with the saw on an Archy I'll give them 2+ BFG cells so they die in one shot.  Finally... when you first come back from fighting the Guardian in Hell, I get the chainsaw from the chainsaw zombie first, then I go into the hallway where all the ticks show up.  The chainsaw is a godsend with those things.  Crouch down, get near corner, run saw, let them suicide on your saw blade.  It's taking advantage of bad AI, but hey.  Id can make the little sporkers climb up the walls and jump around the next time.

I've beaten Doom 3 on Nightmare and I can't say it's really that hard.  You play with the Soulcube already in your possession, so as long as you keep killing monsters you can keep regenerating your health.  You can also pick up health packs like normal.  Getting hit without your health being buffed makes you die in one hit usually but overall it wasn't as difficult as I expected.  RoE was a lot tougher on Nightmare since you don't get health at all from the Artifact and have to rely strictly on health stations and packs.

I don't know if it's entirely true that people who pirate would never buy the product legitimately. Yes, in many cases, with many products, people pirate just cause they can. Movies in particular are like disposable entertainment; you might watch something that's in front of you (i.e. on tv, or on torrent) just because you're bored and it's there. However, you probably didn't bother to see that movie in theaters and wouldn't care to own it on DVD. The licensors are probably losing some money on DVD sales to Netflix, but it's not like everyone who pirates would have been a real customer.

However, when it comes to other products, like creative software, things are different. If you're someone interested in learning music production, graphic design, or video editing, you would probably save up the money to legitimately buy stuff like Fruity Loops, Ableton, or Adobe CS eventually, because it's your passion. However, if it's available on torrent, why bother? Sure, established businesses will buy, and parents will buy their kids student discount software for college, but the developers are probably missing out on 75% to 90% of their sales to everyone else.

As for PC games, I believe the shriveling of the industry is mainly due to the fact that today's gamers are too casual to care. A merely entry level gaming rig will cost at least 2-3 times the price of an Xbox 360 or PS3, because console developers are willing to lose money on console sales in order to rake it in on software and licensing profits. The selection of PC exclusive titles is a relatively small niche, many of the most popular games are console exclusive, and extremely few PC games allow for splitscreen or other multiplayer ability on the same rig. Moreover, Macs are becoming increasingly more popular than PC's for home/office use (thanks Vista), so the odds that someone will simply have a PC already sitting around the house which they can upgrade for gaming are increasingly low. Overall the immense cost increase over consoles, paired with the severe tradeoff in game selection/performance/features, is not worthwhile to your average gamer. Basically unless you're dieing to play Starcraft 2, or old PC games, there's little reason to own a gaming PC.

Say what you will, but I haven't really upgraded my PC in about 5 or 6 years and I can still play all of the new games that are being released.. and even at the time when I bought the parts, the hardware wasn't the 'best' available.
EDIT: Then again, the Xbox 360 and PS3 (and Wii) are about just as old or even older.. hiyoooo

Makes me wonder what people actually consider a 'decent' gaming rig if my ancient machine can run it.


...As for piracy. It's just a lazy excuse. All it ever was.. all it ever will be. I just find it funny when I try to install Fallout 3 and it tells me to insert the 'real' copy instead of a pirated version...... despite the fact it IS a real copy. Didn't like the game to begin with (yea, talk about a waste of money..) and just wanted to give it a second chance with a more open mind, but eh.. guess I don't have to. :)

Hmm this thread seems to get more and more derailed, now into piracy? :P

And since me and my mates quite often have this discussion i just can't leave this one alone!

Anyways piracy isnt like something new, back in the ol days games like doom or whatever were pirated, thought on those days it was more like "sharing" since quite many of us didnt have this thing called internet yet or sat on ol 56k modem or worse :P
In sweden we even have a law which permitts me to make a copy and give it to my friend (which is even more stupid cuz we got a new law making it illegal to bybass copy protected media, duh!)

Thing is since ppls got better and faster internet access something changed, suddenly downloading games, movies were down from days to hours, even minutes which created a new type of demand, like duh im bored..hmm this movie looks cool "press the download button" then you have it.

The movie industry/music still try to deliver their shit on plastic disc which costs quite alot but it's understandable they make alot of moneys selling you that plastic disc with their content, and the general "greediness" prevents them to distrubute their stuff digitaly.

(thought regarding games we are starting to get quite alot of games distrubuted digitally, with steam, ea games, blizzard and hey i buy all my pc games digitally if i can!)

So if ppls dont pay for your stuff what do you do? Lets sue them! Make new laws! shut down their internet connections! hey let's even monitor everything they do on the internet so they won't do anything illegal!
I dare to say that the "anonymous" internet soon will be history thanks to this.

If the movie industry (for an example again) whould had adjusted and delivered their content digitaly and with a sane price we whould not have the problem with "piracy" (of course there will always be those induviduals who will never pay for anything)

Spotify (www.spotify.com) for an example regarding music is a step in the right direction were you pay a monthly fee.

It's gonna be really hard to covince ppls to start paying up for something they got for free but having fair paying alternatives (and legal) should be in everyones interest.

I would also add that people don't like paying for crap that sucks either.  How many people plunked down $14 on a CD because they heard a song on the radio they liked, or a music video, only to find out the other 7-9 songs were utter rubbish?  So along comes the internet and now people start sharing stuff amongst themselves.  "Oh, I like this one.  Nah, this one sucks.  Oh this is cool.  Hey, listen to this one, Joe!"  Then the record companies look at the situation and panic.  Thanks to technological advances, people are sharing what they like with each other and bypassing the corporate-controlled business model of putting a manufactured "star" in front of a camera (pick your popular genre) and pushing one song over and over and over to saturate exposure.  What the internet did is put something in direct competition with their business model, that something being their own customers.  It broke the monopoly hold they have on music entertainment, and so naturally their response is to try to squash it instead of adapting and coming up with a new business model.  I'm not defending piracy here, I'm simply explaining what happened.  The why is partly due to human nature - people like to share with their friends - and partly because of people getting fed up with being ripped off.  What's fed this and turned it into the ugly beast it is today is that the companies holding the rights to the music refused to offer any kind of solution that addressed the lack of perceived value on the part of the customer and the ease of said customers bypassing the record companies and trading music amongst themselves.  If they had developed a sane alternative sooner then a lot of this could have been avoided.  Instead they got greedy and started suing people.

I would hardly say the PC is a dead platform for gaming.  If one goes onto Steam and looks there's a huge library available.  Games can and are ported back and forth, and not all ports suck.  Plenty of games can be good on the PC that are decent on a console, it's just a matter of the devs not screwing up and getting lazy.  PC hardware costs money, sure, but so do consoles.  I'm still playing on a PC that's going on something like 7 years old for the core components, and I've been able to play some newer games just fine.  I can do more than game on the PC.  I use it for gathering news and information, ordering things online, communicating with friends over the net, etc.  In addition, if one component fails I can replace it and continue onward.  It's modular.  A long while back I upgraded my video card because the old cards I were using were too slow for my needs.  There's flexibility in a PC that consoles do not have.  Now given the choice between paying to upgrade my PC and buying a next generation game console when they come out, the choice for me would be clear - upgrade the tool I use for just about everything and don't even bother with a console.  I can't work those freaking weird-ass controllers anyway.  My point is that not everyone has the same needs and not everyone games on consoles.

We've gone kind of off topic at this point, true, but it's a decent discussion and I'm kind of loathe to put the brakes on it since, in a sense, it's all rather relevant to id's re-releasing Doom 3.

Holy crap, this exploded into something completely unexpected! O_o

I don't have a lot to add to the main lines of the discussion here, but there is one thing I'd like to address:


Final Doom for the Playstation was A Thing That Existed. I remember sending Ty Halderman a few e-mails asking for some tips for the later Plutonia Experiment levels, and he actually had to ask me which version I was playing. The PSX version was a total mess and he hates that it exists. I was playing the PC version, but he just needed to confirm because otherwise, he couldn't give me any meaningful help.

The PSX port contains levels from the TNT Evilution and Plutonia Experiment episodes... and Master Levels for Doom II (WTF?). Most of the more difficult maps are omitted, and those that remain tend to have monsters removed. This may have been due to memory restrictions, but when you remove a Cyberdemon, I'm pretty sure you're just trying to make things easier. The level order is just weird, as well; Map 10 of Plutonia is Final Doom PSX's last map. :wall:

It's "Final Doom for Sissies or Those Who Hate PC Games."

That's pretty messed up.

Well i rember when i compared the XBOX version of doom 3 vs. PC..ehr..they even removed parts of the map for the xbox version :)

I was unaware of that, but I was never able to play Doom 3. My PC at the time wouldn't run it, even though the hardware should have been up to the task, and I never picked it up later.

Also, more Final Doom PSX goodness. Take a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvFkbf9D4WQ).

A lot of those sounds are so wrong, and Attack just seems like a weird level to use as Map 01. As a stand-alone level, giving you every weapon but the chainsaw and BFG is fine. As the first map of a campaign, that just seems like a bad idea.

Oh my. Never mind the sound effects ... Doom without its music .. that's just lame. :]

The music is there, it's just very quiet and buried behind the awful sound effects. :doomed:

Actually, those sound effects sound very familiar...
Ahhh yes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0IEue_z5SA&t=1m6s

Both ports were developed by the same team, so ...

Midway's sound effects are one of those elements that splits the fanbase - you've got the PC players who, for the most part, hate them with a passion, then you have the PSX Doomers, who, while being aware that they aren't the original sounds, tend to prefer them. I, for one, have never been a fan of MIDI files and really like the dark ambience that the Midway versions feature, though that said I was coming off the back of the 32X version, so anything would have been better :P

As for making the game easier, that's a necessary concession on a console which (at the time) didn't have analogue controls. Doom64, on the other hand, was pretty challenging.

 My bad for a late post.
Sorry for bringing up the piracy, didn't really expect a total derail. I agree with what everyone says, corporations use the piracy excuse to cancel ports, which sadly, the way of business.

:wtf: Haha the mighty Phoenix, attempting to master the "Weird-ass" joypad,
 Ok, catching up with the topic, Doom 64 was sweet, but PSX Final Doom was something that... should've not lived; I mean we already had Quake 2, which
:offtopic: Was an awesome port and surprisingly, managed to awe with PS1's flimsy ram of 1 MB
:offtopic:
 So I was disappointed of Final Doom, but Doom 64 was an improvement, and the new "wunderwaffe" is 2nd to the BFG 9k

It has nothing to do with mastery and everything to do with physiology.  I can peck a flat surface like a keyboard very well with my talons and move a mouse or, as I prefer, a trackball, I can work an old-style joystick like on the Atari, the old arcade stick for the Sega Genesis was a DREAM controller for me with its three huge buttons, but this:
http://www.gadgetell.com/images/2006/11/ps3_controller_425.jpg
This is not friendly to large bird feet.  :(

My bad let me rephrase that:
I think that's a fraction better. Phoenix, if you ever get your Talons/Feet a console (Impossible, but a Multiverse Phoenix could be reading this, and be interested) just sell the gamepad for a gaming mouse. And that controller, SOOOOO CLUNKY.

I actually like Doom 64. It was actually it's own game instead of just being another port of the PC game(s). Hearing those sounds when used with the PC sprites, though... it's just one of those things where I feel if you're going to make it look like the PC games, you might as well make it sound like them too. It's just very strange to me.

Fan purity has never been a big concern of mine. I have played every version of Doom and i say without hesitation that the PSX version had by far the best sound, and it was over all a very clean, solid port. Doom 64 on the other hand was an entirely new game with its own set of merits.

I guess it all boils down to what kind of DooM mood you want.

And then choosing whether or not to mod the PC version to have the PSx music and sound effects.

Well when i first started to play was on a pc without sound card..aka pc-speaker ftw, still rember when u fired the plasma gun the pc-speaker almost squeaked to death :D

I've used the PSX music and Doom 64 sound effects in my Doomsday config for Doom 1 & 2 for the past decade.

The music compositions themselves for Doom 1 and 2 weren't horrible, but the windows midi synths are just complete ass. The SNES versions (http://www.doom2.net/~doomdepot/music.html#snes) and Bobby Prince's Roland synth MD2s actually sound much better, but not good enough to justify compiling them into a wad and playing with those. There are a bunch of fan reduxes out there, but the Classic Doom soundtrack is the only one I've ever heard that actually sounds like a proper "redbook audio" rendition of the original songs, with live recorded instruments for the guitars and drums, and quality synths for the strings and effects. And unfortunately, the Classic Doom soundtrack only covers episode 1 of Doom 1.

By contrast, the PSX Doom soundtrack offers redbook quality music throughout Doom 1, 2, TNT and Plutonia on par with Doom 64. It might be lacking in melody, but it's got loads of atmosphere. If you ask me, it's more in-keeping with the original idea for Doom to do a serious scifi horror portrayal, rather than a GWAR concert. The GWAR take would be fun to revisit on occasion, except beyond Knee Deep in the Dead, all you get is Microsoft's crappy synth versions of GWAR.

As far as the sound effects, I don't know if there's any differences between the PSX and N64 versions, but in general the N64 versions are simultaneously so faithful yet so much higher in quality, that I don't know how you can dislike them. It's really hard to beat the boom-chick-chick of that single shottie.

As for gamepads, the real problem is that their build quality is so inconsistent. The wireless Xbox 360 pad is basically the best analog stick gamepad out there, yet even brand new out of the box, you still need a deadzone of ~15% in Xpadder to keep your crosshair from drifting on its own, because the analog sticks don't spring back to center properly. A couple pc gamepads like the Belkin nostromo and Logitech Rumblepad have more consistent sticks, but since they're positioned like the Sony Dualshock, anyone over the age of 12 will have to cramp their hands and risk their thumbs colliding and blocking eachother when executing right strafe and left turn movements simultaneously. Moreover, all analog sticks degrade over time, so you keep needing a larger and larger deadzone to prevent drifting crosshairs, which results and increasingly less precision.

Basically unless you custom order an industrial grade pad (http://img.directindustry.com/pdf/repository_di/30804/soldier-portable-control-solutions-233908_2b.jpg) using frictionless hall effect thumbsticks intended for flying drone planes, you're stuck buying a new $50 gamepad every few years in order to keep top precision. All that being said, even with a slightly worn-in 360 pad, I can still score air rockets on level 80 CPMA bots, so it's not unplayable even for an ultra fast-paced precision twitch shooter.

In any case, for gaming on the couch, you are still better off with a PS Move (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iT2ttUyagDc) nav controller paired with a wireless mouse, the Alpha Grip (http://www.alphagrips.com/), or the Razer Hydra (http://youtu.be/Cs2kuOdgtL8?t=12s).

I still have an old soundcard with a Yamaha XG-GS synth chip on it that I use for midi.  You could use a software version of the XG-GS on Windows 98 and 2000, but they never updated it to work properly with XP.  My solution was to dig out the old card and use a Win2K driver that works.  Tabun uses a Roland card of some kind that produces great midi as well, which is what he used for the initial 1.0 teaser vid (the one with the imp snort at the end).  Either way, with a proper midi card the Doom music can sound awesome (and it does).

I suppose I'm a nostalgia purist when it comes to Doom.  I only play PC versions of it.  I tried the Doom 64 TC on the PC and I did not like it much at all.  I primarily tried it because people kept bugging me about some kind of "red laser" included in it that wasn't in the PC version and about how they wanted it in Gen.  Well, to me, laser means laser, as in, a continuous beam of energy, not something that fires red plasma projectiles in a 3-shot spread pattern as I found the "Unmaker" to actually do.  No, it won't be in Gen either.  Again, that purist thing going there.   :doomed:

Yeah, the Unmaker was kinda lame. They wanted to create some kind of demon's artifact weapon, but the engine wasn't capable of much else and they were out of ideas. Doom 3's Soul Cube is much closer to what they were trying to achieve there. What's more, as an "actual gun" and not a story gimmick, implementing the Unmaker as a railgun clone would have added more to the arsenal than a tri-barreled Plasma Rifle repaint.

I still think Doom 64's higher-res graphics and sound, the atmospheric lightning, music, and the level designs, are great. If nothing else, as a mission pack, I'd rather play Doom 64 than Final Doom. On PC you just have to play with fast monsters on.

When I first picked it up, I kind of expected an auto BFG, I was disappointed.

There are certain things I expect when I play a game with a title and appearance of something I've played many times before. When I say the PSX(/N64) sounds are "wrong," I just mean that they aren't what I've come to expect. They are not bad, but they are not Doom's sounds.

I can accept them in Doom 64, since the game was its own separate project and has a look entirely different from the PC titles, but when I see the classic Doom shotgun or Doom zombie guys, there are certain sounds I expect. What you hear in the PSX versions are not those sounds.

Exactly!

Doom and doom64 is just two diffrent games as i see it, they both have their charm and if you compare like that, doom 3 doesnt have the sounds as doom 1 ;)

More on-topic, I just read this juicy bit:

http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-john-carmacks-rocket-powered-3d-goggles-won-e3

Oh when I heard about the 3D somewhere I just expected for tv's, but this seems pretty sweet.
 

It's kind of ironic that Id would debut a device using so much duct tape with Doom 3, when the most common complaint was the lack of duct tape in the game (re: flashlights). In fact, I almost imagine they added the offhand flashlight to BFG edition because otherwise someone would say "what, they got flashlight on the VR goggles, but not in the game?"

Update: BFG Edition will release on October 26 in North America, and October 29 in Europe.
Consoles: $39.99/~€31.99
PC: $29.99/~€23.99

Hmm... got D1, D2 and D3 for the PC. Plus I have 1 and 2 for the 360 just for achieves. I'm not sure if I want to get that for the 360 or PC... Unless there's some sort of thing other than 3d that my TV can't do. I love all the DooMs but there's just not enough info released that I've seen that would make me want it.


 :offtopic:
On top of that... where is a Q2 release for XBL?! Re-release D1, D2 and D3 and no Q2?! Ugh, they need to think about that.   

Quake 2 has been ported actually, it's just not an XBLA title.  It was included in the Xbox 360 release for Quake 4.  There is no online multiplayer sadly, but the single-player is there and splitscreen multiplayer is as well.  (You can also do System Link.)

Is there? Or do I have to be a grammar nazi?

I would buy this! Reasons are put in spoilers because I feel ashamed.

The open forum exists for thoughts to be shared, so share away.

One thing I'm not certain about is whether or not BFG edition supports Resurrection of Evil.  I would hope it does, but does anyone know for certain?

It's included.

Yes, they included Doom 1 (Full/Ultimate), Doom 2, Doom 3 + RoE + Lost Levels. Though they didn't include the Master Levels and Final Doom since they were NOT made by ID Software. I can't wait to be released, definitely buy this one. :doom_thumb:

Hmm... I have it for the 360 but I never noticed Q2 on it. I probably should break that out again and check it. Although I grabbed mine up used, and if I'm not mistaken on the PC version it was a collectors edition of sorts that you got that with. My 360 version is not one of those. :( It's just a regular version.

I read the info about Doom 3 BFG Edition and I'm disappointed of what I'm seeing here.
First, the copies of Doom 1 & 2 are NOT original and here is why:
-Stimpacks, Medikits and Berserk packs have now a pill instead of a cross.
-Redesigned menu (example when you exit game it shows 3 options if you want to stay, quit or return to main menu interface). Also the demo that starts, it doesn't show the HUD and the title screen has been replaced by the intermission screen.
-The secret levels of Doom 2 (MAP31 and MAP32) have been censored! They have removed every texture from Wolfenstein (because of Germany) and all the Nazi Soldiers have been replaced by the pistol zombies. Also MAP31 name is now IDKFA and MAP32 is Keen.
-Included bonus map 33 Betray and the secret exit on map 02 but you can't access the map at all (due of engine limitations). For those who don't know about that map, it was included in Collectors Edition of Doom 3 XBOX (I think) but the map it's pretty shitty.
-Added No Rest For The Living" episode as second episode of Doom 2. Also instead of Which Episode, it says: Which Expansion?

There are many other changes but I'm not going to list them all. Oh yeah, this and the fact that newer games use that stupid Steam EVEN if you own a psychical copy of a newer game (sorry to users who actually like Steam but I was disappointed when I bought a psychical copy of Duke Nukem Forever, it would install through Steam and not from the disc itself, as did old games) are the reasons why I won't buy this...yet! :wall:

So, because I'm the only one here without the whole Doom collection (I'm missing full/ultimate Doom, Final Doom and Doom 3), I will have to use EBay to get Doom Collectors Edition but then I will also have to find normal Doom 3. Oh and please don't recommend Steam, I hate it so much! Don't ask why. :shout:

They did WHAT to Doom 1 and Doom 2?  That's sacrilege!  :shout:  :!:

I got Doom II on XBLA last year and it had the same pill icons on the health when it was released. I can let that one slide as it became a legal requirement a few years ago that games could no longer feature a red cross. As for the Wolf3D levels, it's political correctness gone mad. Completely at odds with a game as irreverent as oldskool Doom, and a bit depressing in general.

Incidentally No Rest For The Living is feckin ace and the PC version is fully playable in your (limit-removing) sourceport of choice.*

*Though ripping it from XBLA Doom was a piece of cake too ...

Couldn't agree more. Like with Quake 4, they should've had a bonus disc for Doom and Doom II plus the other garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1snCRIl16ks

What a load of crap.  I'm so sick of people caving to political correctness and whiny little bitches that get offended about everything.  Red Cross doesn't like the logo?  I got news for you, Red Cross, that's a Christian symbol that predates your organization by several centuries, and originated in Greece!  Germany?  Great way to bury your past by running away from it.  No Nazi symbols, even when you're killing Nazis.  How can you teach history by abolishing it?

Sure, we can have pentagrams and exploding bodies and that's OK, but draw a Swastika for historical context or use a well known symbol for healing and people flip out.  It used to be the pentragrams people got upset about.  Now it's the crosses.  Absolutely insane what this world has come to.   :wall:

Couldn't agree you more. People b**ching about crosses and nazi objects in the game, yet you keep the pentagrams and the upside-down crosses, idiots! I really don't get why id wasted their time on making a censored "remake".

The Nazi thing has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Almost every game that is released showing that time in history doesn't show a swastika because Germany says no. Yet the iron cross, the eagle, and even the uniform colors are perfectly fine.. red band around the arm and all. Somehow the swastika makes it just that much more evil.. or something.. I dunno. I doubt I'll ever understand it, really.
As for the red cross logo, that just blows my mind. Next thing you know, the Medic in TF2 won't be allowed to have his cross symbol (which is red or blue, depending on team).(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rolleyes008.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

The only thing that interests me about BFG edition at this point is the gamepad support. There are a lot of games out there which can be run "splitscreen" just by running 2 windows of the game and assigning a gamepad to the extra window. For vanilla Doom 3 (and Q3) this has never worked because there's no support for analog joystick input; your rate of turn/tilt is always the same regardless of how far you push the stick, which is pretty unplayable. Assuming BFG's new gamepad support is comparable to other recent PC releases, and mods like OpenCoop and LMS still work, this means we can finally run local coop games at home with just 1 PC.

I never had the opportunity to play Doom 3 when it was released, so the BFG Edition is of great interest to me... and I had no idea that this version of Doom 2 includes that (formerly) XBLA-exclusive episode, so there's also that.

If I ever want to play Ultimate Doom or Doom 2 proper, I'll just load up Chocolate Doom and the correct IWAD. Whatever.

Gnam, why would you want to run Doom 3 in split-screen? It doesn't have any co-op aspect, and the multiplayer is nearly non-existent. Am I missing something?

The OpenCoop mod adds cooperative play to Doom 3.

~Va^^pyrA~, aside from OpenCoop, which Makou just mentioned, there's Last Man Standing. Between the two of them, you can co-op Doom 3's main campaign, ROE's campaign, play a bunch of new co-op arcade-style missions, and do a UT Invasion-style gametype on Doom 3's multiplayer maps.

I have yet to confirm it, but if this screen (http://www.moddb.com/mods/phobos/images/arachnotron-action-shot#imagebox) is to be believed, the Phobos TC may include co-op as well, which would be awesome.

Worth noting at this juncture that BFG Edition doesn't support mods. And the original versions of both D3 and RoE have been withdrawn from the majority of the digital distribution sites.

Activision, all is forgiven ...

So I just got around to watching this video, and WOW. That right there completely blows my mind. Why even include the levels at all if you're going to neuter them so badly?
Just.. wow. Go the route the SNES did with Wolf3d if you want to with those stages. That censoring was SMART compared to what I saw there.
On the flip side... I hope the entirety of Wolf3d gets 'remastered' sometime in the future. It'd be awesomely hilarious to see.

Fortunately there are already unofficial patches (http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/61818-doom-3-bfg-edition-iwad-patches/) which restore both the health and the Wolf3D levels to their original glory. Shame that it's come to that though.

I saw that video before you linked it. ;)
That's awesome! But I still haven't bought Doom Collectors Edition, neither normal Doom 3.
I have bought Quake 3 Arena from eBay and I'm waiting for delivery to come at my house. After that, I will buy the two mentioned above but will be hard to find normal Doom 3 as the BFG Edition replaced the normal Doom 3 everywhere! :doom_?:

EDIT: Another reason why to NOT buy the BFG Edition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv1nKtRH4xE&feature=plcp
Apparently the lost missions are just reused maps from Doom 3 campaign. It was recorded by same guy with the video above.
Also bonus video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mR7XObfpMs&feature=plcp
Nostalgia... ^_^
I miss those good old days.

Yeah, I spotted a LOT of copypasta in the Lost Mission, not least of all:


That said, I still enjoyed it, and when you consider the fact that it's £25 for basically the Doom equivalent of the Orange box, it's not so bad.

PC-wise, I'd still recommend the original versions over the BFG Edition, though. The blink-and-you-miss load times don't make up for the rather questionable changes.

I suppose I'm not missing anything by passing on this one then.  I suppose if you never had any of the games it's decent, but for those of us who have the originals... maybe this should have been named the BFD edition:  Big Freakin' Deal?  :doom_?:

It really does seem to be aimed at people who never got to play the original Doom 3 properly, be it because they had an uncooperative PC at the time or their only console solution was the terribad Xbox-the-first port... it's too bad, really.

And I still don't understand why TNT Evilution and Plutonia haven't had a proper showing on consoles. This would have been the perfect opportunity for that. I guess Plutonia, especially, might be too challenging for the average gamer today..?

Couple comments:

The copy-pasta nature of the Lost Missions is terrible!  I will probably hold off on purchasing the BFG Edition until it's much cheaper now.

I have no idea why the red crosses were altered for DOOM 1 and DOOM 2 but it was probably a legal issue like scalliano said.  I don't remember being aware of the change or there being a bug in the database for it when I worked on DOOM 2 XBLA.  So I'm very sorry if I played any part in that and it was avoidable.

Regarding the censorship of Nazi propaganda and the removal of the SS in DOOM 2, those changes were not present in DOOM 2 XBLA so I'm guessing that was done for the BFG Edition.  I have no idea why as I did not work on the BFG Edition nor do I work at ZeniMax Media anymore.

Regarding Map 33: Betray, I remember seeing an issue in the database about it, but I don't remember what for.  (And even if I did, I couldn't tell you.)  Seeing as how access to the map has been cut off, I'm going to guess it was for legal reasons.  One of the guys at Vicarious Visions created the level and Nerve Software was the one that handled the XBLA port.  (Not sure who handled the BFG Edition if it was anyone other than id.)

Lastly, while I'm not encouraging you to purchase the BFG edition, I do highly recommend you check out the No Rest For the Living episode for DOOM 2.  Dead Simple is my favorite DOOM level and March of the Demons comes pretty damn close.  Vivisection is also very good and very reminiscent of Final DOOM.

The XBox port of D3 wasn't that bad. Certainly it was somewhat abridged, but it's impressive that VV managed to get it onto the XBox at all, and they were smart enough to omit some of D3's more annoying areas.

Ironically, Nerve did XBox RoE. I have a US copy (not the CE) which comes with D1, D2 and the Master Levels and both Sewers and Betray are included. TBH those levels weren't anything to write home about anyway. NRFTL, on the other hand ... ;)

As a footnote, (G)ZDoom now supports the BFG Edition IWADs directly, including autoload/episode selection for NRFTL.

I got Doom Collectors Edition few days ago and today Doom 3! ^_^
Thanks eBay! Now I have the whole Doom Collection, I don't need to buy Doom 3 BFG Edition anymore.
Not even for the new episode of Doom 2 called "No rest for the living" is worth anymore. If anyone wants the episode, you can just find on internet.
In short: BFG Edition sucks.

I'm disapointed to hear about BFG's incompatibility with mods. I suppose I'll just have to get my co-op fix from the new Painkiller remake (which features splitscreen out of the box).

It sucks because you can just pirate the extra episode ...

... yeah ...

What? Sorry, I meant that the BFG Edition is not worth buying because of all the reasons I mentioned above PLUS the one mentioned earlier (about the extra episode).
It is worth buying if you don't have any of the Doom games or if you are new to Doom.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Hope you understand now. :)