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Hedhunta
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i think youre stretching with all the flipping and adding of the numbers and whatnot... but thats just my opinion.. if the end if nigh, ive enjoyed my life, albeit however short it may have been.. lucky you pho, you got nothing to worry about, being a firey bird, you can just goto another planet or somethin..
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shambler
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The Universe is so big and lasts for such a long time we are all bound to be reborn in it somewhere. We are just patterns, and pattens will repeat is such a big place.
I don't know if I believe this myself, But I like it.
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Devlar
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Has someone been reading the Bible Code?
As :offtopic as it is I'd like to point out one thing, if they can prove that this was Al-Queda, it is the end of support for the middle east in any regard by the Europeans and its likely your going to see mass deportations and ethnic violence in the region. This is not going to be pretty. The cynic in me does not like the fact that what does point to Al-Queda seems a bit too convenient and too simplistic. An open admission by a group that admits to everything, and a parked truck filled with explosives and some Koran writings. This can without a doubt though be considered a massive shift in the geopolitical orientation of the Europeans on America's "War on Terror" but I wouldn't forsee a massive affinty for Americans and their policies just yet. The European Union has a reputation in the American state department of being rather weak willed, this may be due to the fact that they don't agree with American policies (sorry no Europe isn't about to embrace Darth Bush) or just simply the fact that they cannot agree on some touchy domestic and foreign policy issues. That being said, an event such as this tends to polarize nations (in terms of nationalism, not in terms of touchy feely patriotism) and if the polarization is strong enough to see Arabs as the out and Europeans as the in, your going to have one hell of a reaction your hands. Since if anyone remembers the last nationalistic reaction in Europe, they'll remember what caused the Second World War.
Lets all hope this was just ETA
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-13, 19:14 by Devlar »
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dna
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Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America?
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Woodsman
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no what caused the second world war in europe is that europe ignored a growing problem till it blew up in thier faces. The nationalistic reaction in germany is only how the problem started.
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-13, 21:41 by Woodsman »
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Devlar
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Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America? What happened in America was a patriotic reaction, nationalism tends to be much much much worse. Lets face it, the ties that bind americas are much weaker than those that bind the french or the germans or (insert any self enclosed ethnic-state). You go into a store you buy the cheapest product, in some of these countries people will buy a more expensive product just because its made in their country, I've seen it, when I was in Germany a Japanese TV was half the price and most likely twice as good but the German ones were always boughts. As for Woodsman Nationalistic Germany and Nationalistic France over those fine two provinces. Nationalistic Britian over the Navy. Nationalistic Czechs, Nationalistic Poles, Nationalistic Austrians. Everyone started that war for Nationalism. Hitler would not have invaded Poland did he not think that Nationalism and Ethnic Superiority gave him the right to rule all of Europe |
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dna
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Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America? What happened in America was a patriotic reaction, nationalism tends to be much much much worse. Lets face it, the ties that bind americas are much weaker than those that bind the french or the germans or (insert any self enclosed ethnic-state). You go into a store you buy the cheapest product, in some of these countries people will buy a more expensive product just because its made in their country, I've seen it, when I was in Germany a Japanese TV was half the price and most likely twice as good but the German ones were always boughts. Same thing. As far as your example goes, there are plenty of people who still abide by the "Made in America" tag. You forget that with lots of the overseas brands there likely is no American alternative - take the aforementioned electronics. There are no American TVs to be had. Textiles - might be produced in other countries, but most of the profitts line our pockets (well, the CEOs pockets, but you get the drift). About the only line of products where that doesn't hold true is automobiles. Anyway, I realize that's a tangent, but I felt the need to say it. Nationalism, patriotism is pretty much the same thing, but it comes out in different ways in different cultures which I think is why you call the difference. Geez, I'm rambling. Next time I'm gonna make an outline before I post.  |
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Devlar
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I agree that was a shitty example >_<
That being said I still think that the ties that bind people in a nationalistic country are greater than those that bind in a patriotic country
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Phoenix
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Either way, it's still a bad development. If Al Qaida is indeed focusing attacks on Europe, which is a distinct possibility considering the fact that they don't seem to care much who they kill, then you can have one of two reactions. Europe will either sit on its laurels and do nothing about it, or else go the opposite way, and as Devlar suggests become polarized. If you want an example of how polarized Europeans can be just ask a German or Frenchman what they think of the USA right now. I don't think it's so clear cut though. The ETA could be the triggerpuller on this, but historically such terror groups usually work together. One supplies arms to the other behind the scenes, another recruits and launders money, etc. Al Qaida may just be shooting its mouth off to gain more supporters, but still - they'll gain more supporters. People know 9/11 was Al Qaida, so it's no stretch for them to think they could have organized this too and believe it.
Islamic extremism is a world-wide problem, and it's only going to get worse. The more that attacks like this go unchecked, the bolder they'll become. The only thing consistant and predictable about this is that more people will die in the future. That fact alone, even if any others are tossed aside, shows a devil behind this in one way or another. Maybe a lot of people don't like the US War on Terror because they don't like Dubbya or what have you. That's fine. I just wish the rest of the world would step up to the plate before it gets so bad that the only solution is all-out war in the middle east. I see it edging closer to that every year that goes by while everyone around the world has their face in the sand.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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games keeper
Elite
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the problem that it ouldn't be ETA is that ETA always warns before they attack .
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shambler
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They may have decided on a change of plan. theya are after all terrorists, and don't have to follow rules.
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Devlar
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Not exact shambler, the problem is that a group like ETA has a much more focused goal than Al Queda. While Al Queda wants to remove American influence over the middle east, ETA simply wants self determination for the Basque people. One is a concrete goal the other one can simply be considered revenge, in that regard ETA becomes far more predictable, much like the IRA or any other successonist group (I'm not about to call them terrorists since in all honesty this is one of those prime examples of that say "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"). I really doubt that ETA would cooperate with Al Queda, they might sell each other guns and drugs and exchange war stories but their methods are just too different, and really ETA has nothing to gain from the mass slaughter of people.
The problem isn't Islamic extremism it is extremism in general. The relentless support and inability to criticise and sanction one of the largest human rights abusers in the world, Israel, is a direct cause of the rise in Islamic extremism. That is largely the US's own fault, or more accurately the Christian fundamentalists who are hoping for rapture, and the Zionists who contribute to campaigns. This Huntingtonian attitude of the immediate impending War between the Christian world and the Muslim world holds very little weight. Mainly since the secularized western world (i.e. Not America) wants very little to do with the policies crafted by extremists on either side
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Phoenix
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Devlar, I think you need to go back and re-read history a bit, specifically the part where Muslims invaded Europe in what was their mind a "Holy War" to "Convert the Infidels". This is not some new problem and as much as you want to lay blame on the US and Israel the Arabs started the war with Israel in 1948, and it's Arabs who have been killing people in the name of their god for the last 50+ years - not Christians. This has been going on for centuries. Muslims slaughter Christians all over Africa and it's not reported. The only people who seem to know about it ARE Christians because missionaries bring back the reports, and some missionaries don't come back at all. We had our Crusades and our Inquisition, and grew past it. Islam is going through it's Dark Ages right now, trying to live in the 14th century in the middle of the modern world, and trying to convert by doctrine or by force EVERYONE in the world to their religion.
I really wish you would quit America and Israel bashing and open your eyes to the larger problem here. The people blowing themselves up in the street and flying planes into buildings really don't care about highbrow socio-political theories. They're told to go out and kill as many people as they can, and they do it without question. I've known good Muslims who are peaceful and don't want to bother anyone. They often times are more devout and faithful than most would be Christians. I wish Christians would show that much devotion to Jesus as they show to Allah. The ones I'm talking about being a danger will not be happy until EVERYONE is speaking Arabic and bowing to Mecca 5 times a day. They kill OTHER MUSLIMS who don't agree with their extremist views, so having the idea that they'll somehow ignore anyone except US and Israeli citizens is either laughably optimistic or dangerously ignorant. This problem will NOT go away until either this extremism is stamped out, or they conquer the whole damned world.
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Dicion
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Nostradamus Predicted that the next World War will be started by a man from the middle east who wears a blue turbin... If i remember correctly.... Not sure.. gotta look up the predictions again... but isnt that crazy that Nostradamus could predict all this from way back when?? If you look it up, most of his major predictions have come true in one way or another.... He is almost like our own Seldon (If you don't know who Seldon is.. leave this forum right now.... or Go read the Foundation Series)
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Devlar
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Considering I'm Polish and at last check it was the Poles that kicked the Muslims out of Europe it is something I'm familiar with. I'm also familiar with the Christian Crusades.
Since you don't care about the high-brow socio-political theories, I will ask you one lowbrow thing, why is it then that before the state of Israel was there was relative peace in that region? Why is it that Muslim and Jew were able to prior to the creation of that state get along relatively well? As far as I'm concerned it was the creation of that state that polarized Muslims into the looney state they are in now, and thus the US and Britain are responsible for the situation in which they find themselves.
People who think that a war between Christians and Muslims is inevidible are simply creating it and if someone wants rapture then they might as well kill themselves now and save the rest of humanity the worries
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-15, 05:27 by Devlar »
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Phoenix
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Well historically the Jews have been kicked around from place to place, and 6 million getting butchered by Hitler kind of comes to mind. The territory they were given had been under British control for some time, and unrest had already been brewing prior to the 1948 independence declaration. 100 jews were murdered in an Arab uprising, the Brits wanted to wash their hands of it, and ended up having both Jews AND Muslims at their throats - a problem they quickly wanted to get rid of. As a result, Palestine was divided into a Jewish area, and an Arab area, with Jerusalem sitting in the Arab region. The Jews did what any self-respecting people did and declared themselves a free nation once the territory was handed over to them and the British reliquished control. Within an hour, EVERY neighboring country declared war on them and invaded without provocation. The Jews fought back for a year using hodge-podge weapons left over from WWII and managed to push the invaders back at the cost of many lives. The Arabs picked that fight, and the Jews were vastly outnumbered and outgunned yet still managed to survive. If the Jews are guilty of any crime that led to this war, then existence itself has become criminal for that's all they wanted and all they were attacked for. Contrary to what you may think, the region was NOT peaceful when the declaration was made, it was already subject to civil unrest, murder, and assassination. The independence declaration basically just gave the Arabs and excuse to do what they wanted to - wipe out the Jews and wrest control of the Holy Land away from anyone non-Muslim. That is still the goal of a lot of Arab regimes. They just don't say it publicly as long as the US is buying their oil and pointing guns at them when they get nasty.
As for an inevitable war between Muslims and Christians, have you heard nothing I said? There are a lot of good peaceful Muslims in the world who want nothing of this war. It is the radicals who want war with EVERYONE. That includes non-religious secular types. They want YOU converted or dead too. As for a rapture, well, that's for God to decide now isn't it?
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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