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Devlar
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scalliano, the question of Iraq goes back to 1992 with a document written by Paul Wolfowitz and Karl Rove
You americans seem to think that everything revolves around you and this war on terror, thankfully, it doesn't
To you it may seem
Coalition - 0, Al Queda - 1
To the Spaniards its really
Europe - 1 America - 0
America being the reason they got attacked in the first place
The spanish leadership entered a war that 90% of the people opposed in that country and now they see exactly what everyone predicted would happen, happening. That they got attacked because of it. So it really doesn't take an electoral scientist to predict the outcome of the election, the right lost and the left was put in power.
This does not mean that the Europeans feel any love for Al Queda, it just means that they will deal with them the way they want to deal with them, not in the reckless and damaging manner that the US would like. The US is forcing a war between Islam and itself, for whatever reasons, but the Spaniards are making the right decision doing what they are doing, by not being a part of this game of russian roulette.
You want to consider it appeasement to do so, then fine, think that way, ultimately its not. For the secular world its about distancing itself from the Christian extremism in the US and the Islamic extremism in the arab world. Its like 3 guys fighting and one sitting it out because he doesn't like either of the other two. Quite frankly I applaud them since it is about time someone stood up to the Americans for creating a new and far more dangerous world order
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 01:37 by Devlar »
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Phoenix
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If you mean by running and hiding, then nice job of standing up! If America loses then GUESS WHO'S NEXT? Israel you say? Do you honestly think they'll stop there? Any school teacher will tell you that problems aren't solved by hiding in a corner and hoping they'll go away. As for this being "about the US", well, I thought you said this was all the fault of the USA and Israel? Either way, pretending this is a "US problem" and that Europe is somehow immune to it is ignorant at best and criminal at worst. The USA basically saved Europe in WWII from the Nazis AND defeated Japan. These ingrates wouldn't even BE over there to bitch about US policy if the US hadn't saved the day after they tried to "get along" with Hitler. Do I have to haul you off to an Al Qaida training camp to make it clear EXACTLY what these people do? I won't wish death on anyone over there in the wonderful land of ostriches, but remind me to say "I told you so" once you see more attacks on European soil. Sticking your head in the sand only hangs a "kick me!" sign on your ass, and that is ALL that Spain is doing right now. That's ASKING for another attack. Just because the US has the balls to stand and fight when someone bitchslaps them upside the head doesn't make the US wrong for doing so. I might also add that since 9/11 Dubbya and his "evil government" has kept the US from suffering ANY MORE terrorist attacks. NOT ONE has occured on US soil since 9/11. Wasn't that the point of the "War on Terror" in the first place? National defense - a right every country is entitled to. Don't bash the US for exercising it.
Personally I hope all the US haters keep whining about the US being strong and taking out the trash. I'd love to see what the world would look like if the US really DID decide to go unilateral and imperialist like everyone whines about and basically kicked the shit out of anyone and everyone they wanted to. I think a few ICBM's would make train attacks in Madrid look like a sunday squirrel hunt, don't you? Then you'd all have something worthwhile to complain about for a change. Be glad that the US doesn't behave like Al Qaida. You should remember which side can save and/or kick your collective asses at will but chooses not to instead of rooting for the side that wants to but doesn't (yet) have the means. Just think of what Al Qaida could do with a couple of Russian-made tactical nukes, and remember who's actually out there blowing holes in these thugs instead of trying to kiss their asses. Everyone bitches about the US being a big powerful country. If the US is gone one day you'll all be crying to mommy that nobody's around to save your sorry asses when the next big threat that you can't handle comes knocking on your door.
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 02:26 by Phoenix »
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Devlar
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Who's next? of course its Israel
Do I think they'll stop there? no, but the only way Europe will have a concentrated defense is if they stick together and not get broken apart like a certain government would like it to
America went into Europe during WWII not to save Europe but to protect itself from the expansion of the Soviets so please don't try and tell me they have anything to be thankful for. It was just another in a long series of examples of the US doing what's good only for the US, if a good consequence came of it then Whoopie, we can say we saved the world.
I'm fairly certain that the US has already stuck a "kick me" sign on all of its allies by doing what its done, you have asked for the attack and attacks is exactly what you'll get. Somehow I don't hear about foiled bomb plots in countries that didn't support the Iraqi war or aren't supporters of Israel. No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. You brought this on yourself, since National Defence NEVER included actions outside of your boarders, let alone actions that led to as many human rights violations. If you want to act like assholes in your own country, fine, but keep it the hell in your own country
The world should not have to suffer because a few ignorant, reckless and evil men think they can play power games with the world
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 03:14 by Devlar »
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Woodsman
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Please what a load of crap. If we went to europe in world war II to stop soviet exspansion we would have just helped the germans. General Patton who hated the Russians was pushing for that at the end of the war but he was ignored as a lunatic.
Your a fool if you really believe terrorists need a good reason to attack you. Terror attacks WILL continue to come to europe and your pathetic pandering to thier radical philosophys will not save you. So wave your free palestine banners and chant your war for oil slogans but when bombs go off in paris (and they will) it wont be because the french supported us in any war it will be because they tried to ban islamic head scarfs.
You watch.
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Devlar
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I'll believe it when I see it, and even if it happens, which I am almost certain it won't, I'd rather have Europe fight a threat on its own terms than on the terms of the Americans. Since ultimately, I refuse to let the last place that has any respect for human rights on this planet get rolled over by two teams of dictators.
No bombs have even been planted in countries that didn't support the war in Iraq, until that changes your point is mute
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 08:44 by Devlar »
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Woodsman
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Turkey openly refused to allow us to deploy troops from our bases thier for the war in iraq and it was still attacked. No matter what socialist spin you use on it at the end of the day your still western crusaders just like we are.
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 09:10 by Woodsman »
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Devlar
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Who got bombed in Turkey, a British consulate and two synagogues. I hate to break it to you but neither of those targets were Turkish. The Turkey attacks just validate what I've been saying all along http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3222608.stmI'd still rather be a western crusader who respects human rights than one who doesn't |
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 10:10 by Devlar »
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Woodsman
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a turk in a synagogue is still a turk. Just because hes a jew dosent mean hes not turkish.
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Devlar
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Attacking a mosque in Turkey, that would be an attack on Turkey, an attack on foreigners in Turkey is an attack on the foreigners not on turkey
You may have no conception of nationalism since you are an American and America is a country of immegrants, but Al Queda and Turkey do. Civic nationalism isn't a form of identification there
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 11:25 by Devlar »
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Dicion
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No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17...eats/index.htmlThe letter, from a previously unknown group calling itself the "Servants of Allah the Mighty and the Wise," said it planned to take action after Muslim girls were banned from wearing headscarves in schools.
"We will plunge France into terror and remorse, and we will make blood run to your borders."
Describing France as a country of "wine, pigs, loose morals and nudity," the group said it planned to use attack techniques imported from Gaza and Chechnya that "have never been used in the West until now."
The letter, postmarked from Paris and sent to the chief editor of "Le Parisien," urged Muslims to stay out of crowded areas.
"Europe is a new war zone for the Jihad," it says. "Know that our fight has only just begun."
I'm sorry, but the only thing that spain did by pulling out after getting bombed, is made it look like "Hey.. We Bomb them.. they leave!! Lets bomb them all untill [they all leave | change their laws | believe in allah | we rule the world]" The group claims its members are in France, "ready to give their lives" and inflict "terror into the heart of the French people."
"France will not be secure in its own country nor at its interests abroad."
The group said it was waiting for three signs before moving forward: the headscarf vote; a "clear and explicit" signal from Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda's second in command; and a third signal it cannot reveal. |
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 12:34 by Dicion »
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shambler
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First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niem?ller
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 14:28 by shambler »
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scalliano
Elite
Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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I agree with Devlar, and if my history serves me correctly it was actually the Soviets who took the Reichstag at the end of WW2.
My original point was that if Spain had not joined the war on terror in the first place it would not be in the state it is now ie by joining it made itself a "legitimate target". However, now that it has been hit by a terrorist attack, if it does bail, it is asking for more trouble.
Another example of the terrorists' strategy is made clear with the bomb that ripped up a tourist resort in Bali. Many of the victims were Australian - another country which supports the war on terror.
Just watch the backlash when the US pulls out of Iraq at the end of June.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Devlar
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No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. They've also threatened Canada repeatedly, but there is a big big difference between this and I found 100 kilos of dynamite in a truck parked outside your embassy |
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Woodsman
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You only know the soviets took the Reichstag because it was at the end of call of duty. secondly if the germans had been able to focuse all thier resources on the eastern front the soviets would never have made it that far.
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Devlar
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Threats reveal intentions. Intentions lead to actions As much as I agree with that statement you have to note that its a funnel, tons of people make threats, fewer have intentions and even fewer lead to any actions. I'm sure you can see that the Threats coming at the US, Britian and those who supported the war in Iraq were in greater quantity Wait. "In a long enough time frame, everyone's survival rate drops to zero" -Narrator from Fight Club |
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« Last Edit: 2004-03-17, 19:35 by Devlar »
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