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Author Topic: Good News about the War (Sometimes things just go right)  (Read 56215 times)
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #40 on: 2003-03-30, 06:59 »

I've been knee deep in University for the past couple of weeks and I see that this stuff just doesn't end here. Rather than commenting on the fact that Iraq had and probibly still has an army that has 6 digits and several thousand really aren't going to make a difference I leave you with some links

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4552895,00.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/templates/mi...ion=/printstory

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Phoenix
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« Reply #41 on: 2003-03-30, 09:37 »

Very interesting reading, although I did skip most of bin Laden's letter.  Oh I know "It's the Jews' fault" for the Palestinian issue and the USA's fault for the terrorists becoming murderers, and it always will be to some people, but then trusting in Osama's interpretation of the Torah would be as wise as trusting in a Jewish interpretation of the Koran.  If one is to argue that the terrorists are somehow vindicated for lashing out at the US because of the US's support of Israel then I suppose that the US is by the same note justified in bombing Iraq for no more reason than Iraq's support of the Palestinian suicide bombers.  The door swings both ways, after all, and the tit-for-tat blame game goes on forever this way.  Wars started for "religious" reasons always twist the truth for political gain, and those who perpetuate them are seldom the pious men they pawn themselves off as.  Kind of reminds me of the "America's Army" game, where no matter which team you're on the other guy is ALWAYS the bad guy.  In real life the opposite is usually true.  Murderers know full well who they are, and choose to do so anyway.  If the solution to the terrorist problem were as simple as letting the Palestinians have all of Israel, I wonder then what those in favor of such a policy would suggest the world do with the Jews.  I also find it interesting that no Arab country is willing to accept the Palestinians into their countries if Israel DID actually expell them.  Some friends, eh?  I highly doubt that the US severing ties to Israel at this point would change the minds of fanatics and terrorists.  If anything, it would only embolden them.  Show weakness to a predator and it will attack, and the predator of radical Islam exists for one purpose:  spreading radical Islam and killing any who are opposed to it.  Christianity had it's dark ages during the Inquisition and the Crusades when men were tortured under forced conversions, the belief that such pains to force someone to convert were preferable to the pains suffered in hell, which were eternal.  Those who died and did not convert would have served the devil by drawing people away from the faith and corrupting them, so they were damned anyway, and if they died it was still a service to God and to their poor soul since they would have fewer sins on them and suffer less, and would not be able to corrupt people in the world of the living any longer.  Nevermind the fact that Jesus taught no such thing should ever be done, but men often like to try to make the Almighty's decisions on what's the best way to run His plan themselves.  Radical Islam does the exact same thing, convert or die, it's the will of Allah, etc, whereas moderate Islam does not.  Like anything, religion can be used as a tool for good, bringing out the compassion in men to help the poor and downtrodden, bringing hope, or for evil when men kill and torture in the name of God somehow without the fear of any divine reprisal for their murders.  Perhaps someday the Muslim population of the world will outgrow its own dark ages and tire of the bloodshed.  Until then, regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict I say let God sort them out if they don't stop their fighting over that scrap of land.  Both sides have blood on their hands, and really should just learn to play nice or one day maybe God WILL tire of it and bring peace Himself, perhaps in a way that they would find somewhat undesireable.

While much of the text presented in the links appears to exist for the purpose of unearthing a closet full of skeletons for Mr. Rumsfeld, the political and strategic considerations of the foreign policy at the time, and the mistakes inherent in it do help to paint a broader picture of how this problem was fed, allowed to grow, and eventually blossomed into what it is today.  This just goes to further show why maintaining a "dialogue" with bad people never works, and why catering to ruthless dictators because the alternative looks bad means you'll have to eventually confront them later when they turn on you.  The bible has a good passage regarding this, Matthew 7:6 - "Give not what is holy to dogs, nor cast your pearls before swine; lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and rend you."  Historical hindsight makes it easier to see the mistakes of the past than the potential mistakes of the present.  It also tends to be a rule that future generations end up cleaning up the messes leftover from past ones.  "Sins of the father", if you will, history is full of this shortsightedness of men.  The present situation in Iraq is no different.  It's also even more apparant from these facts you've presented that leaving this madman in power would only leave a greater threat to deal with later as has often been said.  Of course, the situation at the time was much different when these events happened, with the spectre of the USSR and potential nuclear anihilation, the spread of Communism, and the world clearly divided between Soviet influence and Western influence (except for the middle east and Africa) the US foreign policy was pretty much of a mind that Russia = bad, USA = good, and anything that helped Russia was bad for the US.  It got a bit muddy in the Middle East, but radical Islam was also a threat to US interests so Iraq looked like the lesser of two evils when compared to Iran which was a hotbed of terrorists, and still is to this day.  "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", as it were, was the policy at the time but that is a foolish way of thinking.  After the cold war there was no more "evil empire" to deal with, although Communism still existed in the world, the threat of nuclear holocaust seemed to have evaporated.  The 1990 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq put Iraq on the map as an aggressive state (as if it wasn't already) but rather than risk a full-scale war, the idea that Saddam could be "contained" was floated, and then tried for the next decade.  Americans had become too squeamish at the thought of the loss of American life in war following Vietnam, so risking a full-scale engagement was viewed to be unacceptible due to those socio-political constraints.  All of that changed on 9/11, when the US found out once again that it is not immune from assault when a handful of terrorists flew airplanes into skyscrapers and killed over 3,000 civilians, and the number of countries in the "nuclear club" as well as those capable of producing other non-conventional weapons had also since skyrocketed.  With the threat of those weapons falling into the hands of terrorists willing to commit suicide attacks against civilians, and the policy of non-proliferation and containment which relied on the goodwill of bad regimes not to arm them becoming increasingly transparent as an unsustainable strategy, a policy shift was inevitable.  Perhaps that made people finally realize that you cannot deal with the devil and not expect to pay for it later.  The fact that it took 3,000 deaths to wake the American people up to this fact is sad, but not as sad as the fact that the memory of so many Americans, including some in the leadership, is so short that they want to avoid conflict at all costs when doing nothing still resulted in attack.  So now the US policy has been shifted to meet that danger head on and terminate it rather than negotiate with it, a harsher policy than in years past, more aggressive, but perhaps more effective as well since it deals from a position of strength instead of weakness.  Not without it's potential for mistakes of course, and perhaps the motives of those in charge today are not geniune, in politics they seldom are, but then the same questions linger still:

Would inaction have been the lesser of two evils, or the greater?  And if the current problems facing the US are directly or indirectly a result of flawed US foreign policy, then is it not the duty and responsibility of the US to now correct such errors and remove these threats?  War is a terrible thing, and it carries a heavy price, but inaction also carries a price.  Now we wait and see if the outcome of this war is the one desired, and if the motives of those initiating it are pure, or if history once again will choose a path that mankind in its shortsightedness did not forsee.
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Atom235
 
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« Reply #42 on: 2003-03-30, 16:33 »


Quote
Would inaction have been the lesser of two evils, or the greater?  And if the current problems facing the US are directly or indirectly a result of flawed US foreign policy, then is it not the duty and responsibility of the US to now correct such errors and remove these threats?  War is a terrible thing, and it carries a heavy price, but inaction also carries a price.  Now we wait and see if the outcome of this war is the one desired, and if the motives of those initiating it are pure, or if history once again will choose a path that mankind in its shortsightedness did not forsee.

I believe that US foreign policy has gone to the wrong direction. You should give food to the people, help them, and do some other work in Islamic countries. People would believe that you are not bad guys after all after a while. I hope that the outcome of this war is good, and US is in Iraq only to remove "security problem", but what I've seen so far doesn't indicate that. I will wait until the war is over to give my final judgement, though.
« Last Edit: 2003-03-30, 19:08 by Atom235 » Logged
Lilazzkicker
 

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« Reply #43 on: 2003-04-01, 01:45 »

Ok, whats the deal with the borked looking page?

http://members.cox.net/ppk1/Borked.jpg  <-look
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Phoenix
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« Reply #44 on: 2003-04-01, 21:24 »

You got me Lil, page loads fine here.
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« Reply #45 on: 2003-04-01, 22:24 »

Well, yes everybody is justified because they're all full of shit. The US is full of shit for 50 or so years of meddling and bungling, mostly in the name of containing communism. Bin Laden and the Jews are full of shit for their uncompromising interpretations of their own religions. Jerry Fallwell and the Christian coalition is guilty of the same thing as well as meddling in politics. Arabs that support Saddam are full of shit because they're better off without him. They're actually better off without those kings and sheiks, but the U.S. has been propping those pigs up for decades because of the oil. The U.S. did that to prop up the great oil companies of the world who live only for dollars and hold the rest of us for ransom because all our cars need gasoline. They can do that because of all that money which means they can buy votes to keep alternate fuel programs and public transportation from being started. It's a hell of a mess ain't it? It's had it's roots in events over 130 years ago. Ironically it was the English that started it with their empire building. If they hadn't stuck their noses in the arabs tents, the arabs would still be bedoin tribes on camelback. Also I saw a rifle just like Saddam's yesterday only this one was more beaten up and cruddy. It was a Turkish Lebel rifle, made in Turkey in 1943 but no doubt based on original French designs. It even used the same 8 X 50mm Lebel cartridges. Basicly, a FRENCH gun like everything else he's got. French Russian or American, because we all used to help Saddam. Yesterday's ally, today's enemy. <_<
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #46 on: 2003-04-02, 02:34 »

Um......er....gee.....hrm...... Fainting
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« Reply #47 on: 2003-04-02, 20:19 »

theres a new word being kicked around, called normility abuse, or normality abuse, or similare, it refers to a culture that goes along with stuff that they know is wrong but has been going on for a long time, anyways, last night i was tuned into this radio talk show, and this iraqi phoned in and voiced her opinion of bush, she moved to the US in 83', and she totally concured that bush was in the right, and suddam needed to be removed from power, and told a rather upseting story, and made it clear to many of these protesters of the war to move to iraq, and live under their culture, and suddams rule for a year before making such protests, she also went and stated that many iraqis were scared to fight suddam, and they were rightly so to be scared do to whole familys going missing and such not, she praised coalition forces, saying the iraqi people needed their support in ridding iraq of suddam and his goon squads

anyways make what you will of this, being radio i cant verify the legitamicy of it
« Last Edit: 2003-04-02, 20:20 by Lilazzkicker » Logged
Vadertime
 

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« Reply #48 on: 2003-04-06, 04:12 »

Well, uhh, yes, Saddam is filth all right. The sad thing is that our government ever propped up that bassturd in the first place. There's been so much bungling for so long that now it'll probably take a hundred years to untangle the mess. It's good to see that we can bomb Baghdad without reducing the whole city to rubble and that we can selectively wipe out Saddam's goons without erasing the whole Iraqi population.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #49 on: 2003-04-07, 09:01 »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...6-2003Apr7.html

A really bad dude is now dead.
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Atom235
 
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« Reply #50 on: 2003-04-07, 15:32 »

Amen to that.
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« Reply #51 on: 2003-04-24, 23:18 »

Who's dead? Did they get Saddam? Unfortunately he's just one of many. Now we've got to find Bin Laden before he finds us.
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« Reply #52 on: 2003-04-25, 15:08 »

he already found you.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #53 on: 2003-04-27, 01:19 »

Indeed, in a very big way.  The dude who was dead, and you're kind of late if you read this just recently, was "Chemical Ali".  Saddam's official status right now is unknown.  Some think he's dead, others think he's fled to Syria or is still roaming around Iraq somewhere.  We may never know for sure, but I doubt he can do any harm directly.  Indirectly... well, if he shipped all his nerve gas off to Syria that's another story.  We'll just have to wait and see.
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Assamite
 
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« Reply #54 on: 2003-05-01, 00:39 »

Erm, is anyone else troubled by the fact that Iraqi Shiites are mounting huge protests against the U.S. presence, not to mention the fact that soldiers SHOT into several of them?

Apparently, the postwar peace will be much more difficult than the war... But we already knew that.
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Lilazzkicker
 

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« Reply #55 on: 2003-05-01, 02:45 »

hmm, shot into the protestors i assume?

9 times out of 10, i would prolly say it was justified....have any linkage too that info?
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games keeper
 

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« Reply #56 on: 2003-05-01, 09:38 »

put on your television. Slipgate - Smile
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« Reply #57 on: 2003-05-13, 01:03 »

I bet Saddam's bound for some resort somewhere with all that money he stashed away. He stashed his planes in Iran so there's no doubt he's hid some more goodies for us somewhere. I saw on the News one night that Bush wants to make a case against Iran next. If he keeps this up, things could really get nasty.
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #58 on: 2003-06-04, 07:47 »

Hrm....I think Bush's name accurately discribes him....oh and his plan of going into Syria, crossing the line. I think the man needs some ass personally......
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« Reply #59 on: 2003-06-06, 02:43 »

I might remind all of you that historical shortsightedness is never a good thing, especially out of convenience to the like or dislike of a person or persons for political or ideological reasons.  Nor did this situation begin with Bush, although it did, thankfully, end.  Pay attention to which Congressmen are out there asking "where are the weapons of mass destruction?" right now.  If Iraq had no weapons then I ask you to read this text, including the letter to then President Bill Clinton, written in 1998 regarding Iraq.  I think you'll be surprised to find it's the same group of people who signed this letter who are now marching to a different tune simply because they don't like who's in the White House.  Think of what Saddam had to lose, think of what he lost, and if he had no weapons then what logic was there in fighting a hopeless war when he could have just told the inspectors "Look anywhere in my country you like", made a mockery out of the US intelligence agencies, and kept his position of power.  Saddam may have been evil, but he was NOT stupid.  They're there, somewhere, or perhaps the greater threat is that they exist, and now are somewhere else instead, waiting to be used by men eager to rush off to do murder with them.

No, all this is angry talk I hear now is politics, and this is why I hate politics.  There's two muched two-facedness, and party loyalty always wins out over common sense.  Were the reasons for the war political?  Perhaps, but if one is to question the reasons for the war I would also invite them to question the motives of those who are busy criticizing it when they were advocating the exact same action no more than 5 years ago.  Never forget history, and never forget the context in which things are said by people in power, especially those who have lost it and now seek to regain it.


Senator Carl Levin

Statement on Iraq

October 9, 1998

Mr. LEVIN. Mr. President, today, along with Senators McCain, Lieberman, Hutchison and twenty-three other Senators, I am sending a letter to the President to express our concern over Iraq's actions and urging the President `after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.'

At the outset, I believe it would be useful to review the events that led up to the requirement for the destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. At the time that Iraq unlawfully invaded and occupied its neighbor Kuwait, the UN Security Council imposed economic and weapons sanctions on Iraq .

After Iraqi forces had been ousted from Kuwait by the U.S.-led coalition and active hostilities had ended, but while coalition forces were still occupying Iraqi territory, the UN Security Council, acting under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, conducted a review of Iraq's history with weapons of mass destruction and made a number of decisions in April 1991 to achieve its goals, including a formal cease fire.

With respect to Iraq's history, the Security Council noted Iraq's threat during the Gulf War to use chemical weapons in violation of its treaty obligations, Iraq's prior use of chemical weapons, Iraq's use of ballistic missiles in unprovoked attacks, and reports that Iraq attempted to acquire materials for a nuclear weapons program contrary to its treaty obligations.

After reviewing Iraq's history, the Security Council decided that `Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision' of its weapons of mass destruction programs and all ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers and conditioned the lifting of the economic and weapons sanctions on Iraq's meeting its obligations, including those relating to its weapons of mass destruction programs.

To implement those decisions, the Security Council authorized the formation of a Special Commission, which has come to be known as UNSCOM, to `carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile capabilities, based on Iraq's declarations and the designation of any additional locations by the Special Commission itself' and requested the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to carry out similar responsibilities for Iraq's nuclear program. Additionally, the UN Security Council decided that Iraq shall unconditionally undertake not to use, develop, construct or acquire weapons of mass destruction and called for UNSCOM to conduct ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance. The detailed modalities for these actions were agreed upon by an exchange of letters in May 1991 that were signed by the UN Secretary General, the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM and the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Iraq .

Thus, Iraq unconditionally accepted the UN Security Council's demands and thereby achieved a formal cease-fire and the withdrawal of coalition forces from its territory.

Mr. President, UNSCOM has sought to carry out its responsibilities in as expeditious and effective way as possible. UNSCOM Executive Chairman Richard Butler and his teams, however, have been confronted with Iraqi obstacles, lack of cooperation and lies. As UNSCOM has noted in its own document entitled `UNSCOM Main Achievements': `UNSCOM has uncovered significant undeclared proscribed weapons programmes, destroyed elements of those programmes so far identified, including equipment, facilities and materials, and has been attempting to map out and verify the full extent of these programmes in the face of serious efforts to deceive and conceal. UNSCOM also continues to try to verify Iraq's illegal unilateral destruction activities. The investigation of such undeclared activities is crucial to the verification of Iraq's declarations on its proscribed weapons programmes.'

Mr. President, I will not dwell on the numerous instances of Iraq's failure to comply with its obligations. I would note, however, that in accepting the February 23, 1998 Memorandum of Understanding that was signed by the UN Secretary General and Iraq's Deputy Foreign Minister, that ended Iraq's prior refusal to allow UNSCOM and the IAEA to perform their missions, the UN Security Council warned Iraq that it will face the `severest consequences' if it fails to adhere to the commitments it reaffirmed in the MOU. Suffice it to say that on August 5, 1998, Iraq declared that it was suspending all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA, except some limited monitoring activities.

In response, on September 9, 1998, a unanimous UN Security Council condemned Iraq's action and suspended its sanctions' reviews until UNSCOM and the IAEA report that they are satisfied that they have been able to exercise their full range of activities. Within the last week, Iraq's Deputy Foreign Minister refused to rescind Iraq's decision. Throughout this process and despite the unanimity in the UN Security Council, Iraq has depicted the United States and Britain as preventing UNSCOM and the IAEA from certifying Iraqi compliance with its obligations.

To review, Iraq unlawfully invaded and occupied Kuwait, it's armed forces were ejected from Kuwait by the U.S.-led coalition forces, active hostilities ceased, and the UN Security Council demanded and Iraq accepted, as a condition of a cease-fire, that its weapons of mass destruction programs be destroyed and that such destruction be accomplished under international supervision and permanent monitoring, and that economic and weapons sanctions remain in effect until those conditions are satisfied.

Mr. President, by invading Kuwait, Iraq threatened international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. By its failure to comply with the conditions it accepted as the international community's requirements for a cease-fire, Iraq continues to threaten international peace and security. By its refusal to abandon its quest for weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them, Iraq is directly defying and challenging the international community and directly violating the terms of the cease fire between itself and the United States-led coalition.

Mr. President, it is vitally important for the international community to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to allow UNSCOM and the IAEA to carry out their missions. To date, the response has been to suspend sanctions' reviews and to seek to reverse Iraq's decision through diplomacy.

Mr. President, as UN Secretary General Kofi Annan noted when he successfully negotiated the memorandum of agreement with Saddam Hussein in February, `You can do a lot with diplomacy, but of course you can do a lot more with diplomacy backed up by fairness and force.' It is my sincere hope that Saddam Hussein, when faced with the credible threat of the use of force, will comply with the relevant UN Security Council Resolutions. But, I believe that we must carefully consider other actions, including, if necessary, the use of force to destroy suspect sites if compliance is not achieved.

Mr. President, the Iraqi people are suffering because of Saddam Hussein's noncompliance. The United States has no quarrel with the Iraqi people. It is most unfortunate that they have been subjected to economic sanctions for more than seven years. If Saddam Hussein had cooperated with UNSCOM and the IAEA from the start and had met the other requirements of the UN Security Council resolutions, including the accounting for more than 600 Kuwaitis and third-country nationals who disappeared at the hands of Iraqi authorities during the occupation of Kuwait, those sanctions could have been lifted a number of years ago. I support the UN's oil-for-food program and regret that Saddam Hussein took more than five years to accept it. In the final analysis, as the Foreign Ministers of Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, comprising the Gulf Cooperation Council stated at the time of the February crisis: `responsibility for the result of this crisis falls on the Iraqi regime itself.'

I ask that the letter to the President be printed in the Record.

The letter follows:

U.S. SENATE,
Committee on Armed Services,
Washington, DC, October 9, 1998.

The President,
The White House, Washington, DC.

Dear Mr. President: We are writing to express our concern over recent developments in Iraq .

Last February, the Senate was working on a resolution supporting military action if diplomacy did not succeed in convincing Saddam Hussein to comply with the United Nations Security Council resolutions concerning the disclosure and destruction of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. This effort was discontinued when the Iraqi government reaffirmed its acceptance of all relevant Security Council resolutions and reiterated its willingness to cooperate with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in a Memorandum of Understanding signed by its Deputy Prime Minister and the United Nations Secretary General.

Despite a brief interval of cooperation, however, Saddam Hussein has failed to live up to his commitments. On August 5, Iraq suspended all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA, except some limited monitoring activity.

As UNSCOM Executive Chairman Richard Butler told us in a briefing for all Senators in March, the fundamental historic reality is that Iraq has consistently sought to limit, mitigate, reduce and, in some cases, defeat the Security Council's resolutions by a variety of devices.

We were gratified by the Security Council's action in unanimously passing Resolution 1194 on September 9. By condemning Iraq's decision to suspend cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA, by demanding that Iraq rescind that decision and cooperate fully with UNSCOM and the IAEA, by deciding not to conduct the sanctions' review scheduled for October 1998 and not to conduct any future such reviews until UNSCOM and the IAEA, report that they are satisfied that they have been able to exercise the full range of activities provided for in their mandates, and by acting under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, the Security Council has sent an unambiguous message to Saddam Hussein.

We are skeptical, however, that Saddam Hussein will take heed of this message even though it is from a unanimous Security Council. Moreover, we are deeply concerned that without the intrusive inspections and monitoring by UNSCOM and the IAEA, Iraq will be able, over time, to reconstitute its weapons of mass destruction programs.

In light of these developments, we urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraq sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.

Sincrely,

Carl Levin, Joe Lieberman, Frank R. Lautenberg, Dick Lugar, Kit Bond, Jon Kyl, Chris Dodd, John McCain, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Alfonse D'Amato, Bob Kerrey, Pete V. Domenici, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Mikulski.

Thomas Daschle, John Breaux, Tim Johnson, Daniel K. Inouye, Arlen Specter, James Inhofe, Strom Thurmond, Mary L. Landrieu, Wendell Ford, John F. Kerry, Chuck Grassley, Jesse Helms, Rick Santorum.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congressional Record
October 9, 1998
United States Senate
pp. S12239-S12240
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