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Wirehead Studios > Wirehead Modifications > Generations Arena > JDoom vs Gen Doom (Split from Polls thread)
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Author Topic: JDoom vs Gen Doom (Split from Polls thread)  (Read 12023 times)
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Phoenix
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« Reply #20 on: 2005-01-15, 04:39 »
Quote from: Woolie Wool
I'm just saying that they look like 3D versions of the original weapons
From one direction only.  Please pay attention to what I post, I already stated the JDoom view models only have to be seen from behind whereas ours have to be seen from any direction in 3D space.  I'm getting a bit tired of repeating myself.

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which is how I always thought updates should be carried out--make them look like the originals, only more detailed.
You're not in charge of the project.  I am.

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(Tabun, where are the myriad liberties you claim to have taken with the Q2 weapons, besides the shape of the machinegun's stock and some changes to the  big orange thing on the top of the railgun?)
I'm sure Tab will have something to say, but I'm really not up to justifying our design techniques to you any further at this point.  If you're too lazy to examine the weapons in detail before making a criticism I don't think you deserve a detailed response.  Slothful ignorance will not be rewarded here.

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As for the Doom pistol being a Beretta, its shape is a lot sleeker and more rounded than the Beretta pistols shown at http://world.guns.ru (it's a pretty good site for anything gun-related). The Doom pistol is kind of tricky to imagine because it doesn't seem to be 100% perspective-correct. Trying to draw it in other angles makes it not turn out quite right. I think they drew the gun mostly by hand.
It's a 9mm Beretta, trust me.  The single-barreled shotgun in Doom was also a toy they photographed from behind.

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I've always been alert to inconsistencies in a game. It still annoys me that the chainguns used by the chaingunners in Doom are a different color and fire with a different sound. Why are professional game developers so sloppy at times?
Well the shotgun noise sounds beefier, so maybe they did it for "feel".  If you don't like the way games are designed, you have the option to either make your own, mod what you don't like, or don't play them.  Also I see blatant ignorance in the fact that you seem to have no concept of just what is involved in creating a full-blown retail game.  Not everything that does not make sense to you is "sloppiness".  Sometimes there are good reasons why things are a certain way that are not apparent on the surface.

Per Dr. Jones's request...  Most of our weapon models average from 1000 - 1500 polygons.  The largest amount for any single gun model is around 2400.  The smallest I believe is 800 or so.  The amount of geometric complexity depends on the physical design as well as the style of the weapon.

What's being ignored in all of this is the texture mapping and object separation.  This is something you don't ever see unless you examine the md3's, but we've designed all of our models so that the textures render with the least amount of visual distortion and seaming as is possible, and minimize wasted texture space as much as possible..  That's a large part of how we're able to get as high a level of detail as we can and though Gen takes up a lot of memory with textures, it would take up to 30%-50% MORE if we weren't so diligent about this.  Tab and I both know how to generate extremely efficient texture maps with skinning in mind so that he's able to dress the models up extremely well.  Also, any part of a model that requires special effects, like glows, energy shaders, etc, have to be mapped out so that the shader will handle properly.  This requires extensive knowledge of the Q3 shader language, functionality, and also a clear idea of what you want to do effect-wise before you even begin to texturemap and split the various parts of a mesh into individual objects.

Where this whole argument is stemming from has nothing to do with quality, and everything to do with style preference.  Style is something unique to the artist, and remains at their discretion, and the discretion of those in charge of the project.  I don't mind if you prefer a specific style over what we've done with the Doom weapons, but our quality of work is what is being completely ignored by you, and this is what's generating such a heavy backlash by us.  We take pride in what we do, and detest ignorant criticisms.
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Tabun
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« Reply #21 on: 2005-01-15, 06:19 »
Sadly, it's always the people with the least experience and know-how that are the most eager to make bold claims and demands.
I shall not dissappoint ye faithful reader, and respond to this:

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(Tabun, where are the myriad liberties you claim to have taken with the Q2 weapons, besides the shape of the machinegun's stock and some changes to the  big orange thing on the top of the railgun?)

Obviously I'm not going to through the pains of posting screenshots of texture and model details. My time may not be priceless, but it is definitly too valuable for that. I suggest taking some dried frog pills, if you have trouble spotting the differences.

Other than that, I'm pretty much done with this. If you're trying to help, think it over first, do your homework and be reasonable. If not, what the hell is the point of stating your dislikes so expansively here?
« Last Edit: 2005-01-15, 06:23 by Tabun » Logged
Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #22 on: 2005-01-15, 15:14 »
woolie , if you dont like a weapon in game , then dont use it .
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shambler
 
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« Reply #23 on: 2005-01-15, 18:03 »
Quote from: Tabun
Sadly, it's always the people with the least experience and know-how that are the most eager to make bold claims and demands.
 
Games are just like everything else in life then.
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Lordbane2110
 
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« Reply #24 on: 2005-01-15, 19:13 »
I still can't believe woolie is being so

well how can i put this so as not to offend

hmmmm

you know i can't, if anybody wants to know what i really thing about woolie, e message me

Tab and Pho's work is amazing  Thumbs up!

and quiet frankly Gen is all about gameplay

yeah is nice that we have top notch looking models for the weapons, that in my opinion
(and that's all it is so don't bite my head off) as it adds to the game

and how the hell can he say they don't look like the originals, apart from the doom pistol which i always though looked out of place, honestly a 19th century pistol in the 25th century, is a complete joke

the beretta model of gen suits the doom class more, as they are more like the traditional weapons of this era, of which other than the plasma based weaponary are spot on.

i mean if you gonna dis the gens doom like weapons, why not have a go at slipgate as well yeah

or strogg

why ?

because you can't, the weapon models that have been made and textured by Tab and Pho, and i dare , here me DARE !!!

anybody else to have a go

beacause the Doom, Quake and Quake 2 weapons and damn near perfect, and with animations, we'll all end up dying a lot more, as dribbling and playing is hard to do

want to see a crap model, play J-Doom

want to see a work of art Look no further than this web page
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #25 on: 2005-01-16, 00:34 »
Quote from: Woolie Wool
I was never pointing to the MD2s in overall quality (in fact, they MUST be kind of primitive because dozens of them may be on-screen at once. But they're getting better than they use to be), I'm just saying that they look like 3D versions of the original weapons, which is how I always thought updates should be carried out--make them look like the originals, only more detailed. (Tabun, where are the myriad liberties you claim to have taken with the Q2 weapons, besides the shape of the machinegun's stock and some changes to the  big orange thing on the top of the railgun?)

As for the Doom pistol being a Beretta, its shape is a lot sleeker and more rounded than the Beretta pistols shown at http://world.guns.ru (it's a pretty good site for anything gun-related). The Doom pistol is kind of tricky to imagine because it doesn't seem to be 100% perspective-correct. Trying to draw it in other angles makes it not turn out quite right. I think they drew the gun mostly by hand.

I've always been alert to inconsistencies in a game. It still annoys me that the chainguns used by the chaingunners in Doom are a different color and fire with a different sound. Why are professional game developers so sloppy at times?

(Since jDoom supports MD3s as well as MD2s, they really ought to convert the MD2s to MD3s to take advantage of the better animation system and the limit removal)
Stifle!
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Phoenix
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« Reply #26 on: 2005-01-16, 03:41 »
I think it's time to terminate this topic.  :rules:
« Last Edit: 2005-01-16, 03:41 by Phoenix » Logged

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