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fourier
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On a bit of a tangent, what are the Q1 rocket's stats (and are the same in generations) -- missile speed, refire delay, damage, splash damage (which I believe are both 120), splash radius?
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Niveus
Lost Soul
Posts: 11
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Found my problem with the bots. My handicap was set to 15, which I fully realized wasn't normal when I scored an impressive on a newly spawned bot, and he lived.  A thought for another con in using Dual Gats.... How about he cant use the harpoon with them out. It's not like he could off-hand a gat and the harpoon. |
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Phoenix
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Well, off-handing the grapples doesn't really off-hand them, it's more like clipping it on your belt. In CTF where weapon grapples will have a prominent roll, I'd rather not alter the behavior of the grapple in relation to only one of a class's weapons. That's counter-intuitive and would certainly generate bug reports. Switching off the grapple when it's active can be risky enough as it is anyway so I don't feel a need to handicap it for a single weapon. Grappling to the ceiling or a wall and hanging makes you a pin-up target, and grappling to other players, while very useful, works both ways and your opponent might not need to switch guns to turn and shoot you while you're in the process of changing yours, which in the case of dual gats means someone can score a BFG if you screw up. On the upside, Earth's harpoon is a vicious weapon if you can hit someone with it. It will inflict quite a bit of damage, and then reel in your victim so that you can finish them off up close. While they're being reeled in they're completely helpless to move, though they can still turn and attack you. A quick and well-aimed harpoon shot can stop a flag runner from escaping your base. Harpoons can also reel in friendly players, so if a flag runner has a long distance to cross you can give them an assist and pull them out of harm's way. Multiple Earth Soldiers hitting a player with two or more harpoons simultaneously also results in a rather fatal game of tug-of-war that has to be seen to be appreciated. 
The only grapple that cannot be switched off of while active is Doom's. This was done primarily because Doom Warriors are already fast enough and it keeps Doom Warriors on the move as opposed to grapple-camping. Doom Warriors are also commonly used to run the flag, so it serves two other purposes. First, it prevents an accidental weapon switch from sticking you to the wall with the flag. Second, it makes the Doomer concentrate on either attacking with his guns, or using the grapple to move about. This will put the Doomer in a spot of relying a bit more on teammates for cover fire while making a fast getaway, as opposed to trying to be a one-man army charging into the flag room. That may or may not work, but teamwork in CTF is a much better idea. The third aspect of his grapple is the effect applied when hitting another player. The beam has the effect of slowing down the movement of an enemy while slowly inflicting damage and tugging them toward the Doomer. It can also remove a grapple-camper from a wall and prevents grappling players from hanging in place. They'll move slow on their grapple, and once they reach the end of their travel they'll get pulled down again. This allows a Doom Warrior the chance for a quick grab on an escaping flag runner or slowing down someone charging into their base. It makes the person caught in the grapple beam very vulnerable to fire from the Doom Warrior's teammates. There's a hitch though. The person caught in the grapple beam CAN still attack, and jumping into the air will close the distance to the Doom Warrior quickly. While the Doom Warrior has the beam active he cannot attack with another weapon, so again the reliance on teammates is crucial since the drain damage is very slow, and releasing the beam to switch to another gun will likely result in a flag runner getting away.
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Q1 rocket stats:
Projectile Speed: 1000 units/second
Refire Delay: 600 milliseconds
Impact Damage: 100 to 120 points.
Splash Damage: 120*
Splash Radius: 160**
* Splash damage inflicts 40 units minimum damage at radius edge up to maximum 120 points at radius center.
**An extra 40 units is added in the radius check to the 120 units sent into the T_RadiusDamage function.
Generations Slipgate rocket stats:
Projectile Speed: 1000 units/second
Refire Delay: 600 milliseconds
Impact Damage: 100 to 120 points.
Splash Damage: 120*
Splash Radius: 140**
* Splash damage inflicts 22 units minimum damage at radius edge up to maximum 120 points at radius center
** An extra 20 units is added in the radius check to the 120 units sent into the Generations Slipgate damage function.
As you can see there is an adjustment to the Slipgate rocket launcher's damage falloff curve as well as a slight reduction in the "extra" radius added in the radius damage function. This was done mainly as a balance measure so that in normal play the Slipgate rocket launcher performs very much like it's Quakeworld cousin, but not to the point of absurdity. More accurate shot placement rewards you with more damage. As for knockback, the knockback is identical. I split the knockback and damage curves so that, while damage might be slightly less for a less proficient shot, the kick will be the same. This rewards more proficient rocket jockeys without losing the feel of the weapon for less proficient marksmen.
Some purists might squawk about tweaking the Skippy bombs, but as a comparative note the Doom rocket launcher could inflict damage between 148 and 288 points of damage for a direct hit. Doom rockets have a 128 unit splash radius and damage with a linear 1:1 falloff curve (1 unit damage at maximum distance). For a direct hit, a value of 20 multiplied by a random value of 1 to 8 is added to the radius damage, resulting in the insanely high direct hit potential. Doom rockets also have an in-flight bounding box of 22 units wide and 8 units high, whereas Quake, Quake 2, and Quake 3 rockets have no in-flight bounding box at all. In Generations we've scaled this back to a flat 125 units for a direct hit and a smaller in-flight bounding box.
For those of a more purist mindset, 1.0 is going to have an "oldschool" mode that will put in the exact, horribly unbalanced values to all the guns, as well as the huge 200 point armor pickup values, etc. That way those wanting to see which class can, game vs game, 1:1, beat up on another class will have that mode available.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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fourier
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Thanks, Phoenix. Why is the impact damage 100-120? Is it the same case as the doom rocket you described -- a random value added to the 100 base?
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Phoenix
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In Quake and Quake 2 the impact damage is 100 + random 1-20 points. Quake and Quake 2 rockets deal either impact or splash, but never both to the same target. That's the same behavior in Gen. Quake 3 rockets, damage-wise, are comparatively weaker for both impact and splash, and also inflict direct hit or splash, but never both to a single target. A direct hit from a Q3 rocket does a flat 100 points, and the splash is a Doom-style linear curve from 1 point minimum to 100 points maximum, spread out over a 120 unit radius. Doom rockets are fairly reasonable with splash, but a direct hit and you're pretty much sporked since they do impact and splash. I think I forgot to mention the splash radius on a Doom rocket is a fixed 128 units. For an old-school class vs class comparison the breakdown is pretty much like this. These are the original game weapons I'm referring to here.
Wolfenstein 3D: N/A.
Doom: Most damage potential, fast refire, bounding box makes them somewhat tricky to avoid. Most destructive at close to medium range or in tight quarters. Fairly slow flight speed makes them easier to dodge at longer ranges, but in a corridor you're doomed. First-shot hit potential is somewhat hampered owing to a firing delay, so usually multiple rockets are "spammed" for maximum effectiveness. Hard to inflict splash damage in the original game owing to the lack of "floor aim" ability. Later source ports like Zdaemon allow/disallow manual vertical aiming depending on server settings.
Quake: High damage potential, huge blast radius, incredibly high knockback. Fast flight speed and blast radius makes them the splash damage king. Refire rate is moderate. The high flight speed and huge blast radius makes them deadly at any range. Has the ability to disorient and "juggle" opponents in the air from the knockback.
Quake 2: High damage potential, moderate blast radius, low knockback. Slow flight speed makes them really only useful at close to medium range, and a moderate refire rate requires high aim precision to be effective. A high splash damage curve makes any hit by them fairly damaging so long as you actually hit someone. As a close-range weapon they're one of the safest rockets to use without hurting yourself, but they're the hardest rockets to use effectively. At long range they're only useful for suppressing fire or the occasional luck shot.
Quake 3: Moderate damage potential, moderate blast radius, moderate knockback. Fairly fast flight speed and fairly decent refire rate makes them quite easy to use. They're not as damaging in a single shot, but the combination of refire speed, initial ammo pickup of 10 rockets, and a decent refire rate provides a multiple hit potential that makes up for the lack of single projectile damage. Like the Q1 rocket, they can work at long range and are fairly decent for knockback juggling.
Most of the balance concerns with rocket weapons in Generations have been directed toward the Doom rocket launcher of all things. The projectile bounding box, even though it's smaller in Gen, has been a source of contention so for balanced play in the next build we've actually tightened it up a bit, requiring a bit more precision for direct hits. I think the combination of the 125 unit direct hit damage plus the fact that the projectiles tend to "cluster up" from the fast weapon refire combined with a charging Doom Warrior makes the weapon seem a bit spammy to some. Multiple Doom Warriors crowding the same server result in many rocket deaths and hence complaints about the weapon being overpowered, especially when a Strogg Grunt is sandwiched in the middle of a rocket fight. I don't entirely agree with that sentiment myself, but I'm also a bit biased so I have to work from feedback as well as my own thoughts. It is a fairly easy weapon to score multiple hits with, and combined with the Doomer's speed it can be tough to avoid once cornered. To me it's one of those things that's just in the nature of the gun, but tightening up the bounding box seemed to help a bit in the complaint department, much like knocking a little bit off Slipgate's radius and damage curve made his rockets remain quite effective but not quite as overpowering.
One other aspect of Doom launcher that Old-School mode will bring back is the initial shot delay. Like the BFG9000, the Doom rocket launcher takes a moment to fire. We did testing with the delay and in balanced play it feels awkward and makes the gun extremely hard to use. You have to spam the gun and surprise attacks around the corner are an "always lose" situation vs any other class. Without the bounding box the gun just doesn't work with that forced delay added in, and also makes rocket jumping impossible except for absolute experts. For Old-School mode it's a reasonable tradeoff for the high damage potential and huge bounding box. It means the gun will get more spammy in Old-School and rocket jumping will be very, very hard, but in that mode we won't really care much about balance much anyway.
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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~Va^^pyrA~
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For those of a more purist mindset, 1.0 is going to have an "oldschool" mode that will put in the exact, horribly unbalanced values to all the guns, as well as the huge 200 point armor pickup values, etc. That way those wanting to see which class can, game vs game, 1:1, beat up on another class will have that mode available.
Out of curiosity, how exactly will the Earth Soldiers be handled in Oldschool Mode? Also, so as to not waste space posting elsewhere... Has the Wirehead team ever considered redoing the visuals of the Arena Gladiators' weapons? They look awfully dated when compared to some of the other classes' armaments. I realize that remodeling them might be a bit much to ask, but perhaps a more detailed texture for each would work. Maybe give them some rust and burned muzzles? I don't know... It's just a thought. |
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« Last Edit: 2008-11-24, 18:56 by ~Va^^pyrA~ »
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Thomas Mink
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Out of curiosity, how exactly will the Earth Soldiers be handled in Oldschool Mode?
Actually a bit disappointed that I never thought about it to ask this myself.. good question. Old School Mode sounds more intriguing the more I hear about it.. and think about it.. |
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MarneGator
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I would like the option for what Phoenix mentioned in regards to my prior post: 99 rounds, no armour, rapid death, and insane weapon power. He shouldn't jump either  Maybe a special DM flag for the insane? Old School, especially in regards to Earth / Wolf, is such an exciting prospect. Frankly, it can't come soon enough! Heck, I'm looking forward to that more than the weapon animations. |
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-Veritas-
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Nonanonymous
Dopefish
Posts: 7
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On the subject of weapons, is it just me, or is the Nailgun weaker than it used to be? Can we please speed up those projectiles, at least on the Super one? Also, does the Slipgate 'launcher have a smaller blast radius than the Arena and Strogg ones, or am I just being thrown off somehow? It seems like the Slipgate 'launcher is the only one that's really giving me trouble.  |
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Thomas Mink
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After watching the 1.0 video from a while ago.. I have hope for the nails. I've lobbied for something to be done for the longest time, and they seemed perfect in the video. Just hope I'm not being too optimistic.
As for the launcher.. I think Stogg actually has the smallest splash radius, but I could be wrong. Slippy rockets never gave me a problem and felt just fine to me.
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Phoenix
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Projectile damage and radius values in Gen:
Earth Mortar: 100-120 points direct hit damage, 160 unit splash radius, 18 - 75 points splash damage.
Doom Rocket Launcher: 125 points direct hit damage, 128 unit splash radius, 1 - 128 points splash damage.
Slipgate Rocket Launcher: 100-120 points direct hit damage, 140 unit splash radius, 22 - 120 points splash damage.
Strogg Rocket Launcher: 100-120 points direct hit damage, 120 unit splash radius, 40 - 120 points splash damage.
Arena Rocket Launcher: 100 points direct hit damage, 120 unit splash radius, 1 - 100 points splash damage.
Strogg and Arena actually have the smallest splash radius, but the radius is not the only factor. Notice how some rockets, like Arena and Doom, can do as little as 1 point of damage at the edge of their splash radius,whereas Strogg can do 40, and Earth and Slipgate do 18 and 22 respectively.
I think where a problem lies right now with the Earth, Slipgate, and Strogg projectiles is the timers I'm using to move them through the world. These don't affect the speed of the projectile, but rather they cause a delay in spawning them into the world, up to 75 milliseconds for Strogg's projectiles. I've fixed the timing issue in the next build and the projectiles feel a lot more responsive as far as actually landing hits, especially the Strogg rocket launcher. I've removed this "artificial lag" without affecting how the projectiles calculate trajectory data, which is very important for grenade behavior. The nails have not technically been the wrong velocity since I reworked the projectile code in .99c. The problem is the above timer concern and also the nail model currently in use is two large, giving them a slower perceived motion. I believe I also had Slipgate projectiles calculating on a 50 millisecond frame, when they needed to be a 25 millisecond frame. This may have had a slight effect on real projectile speed vs defined projectile speed.
If this sounds a bit complex, don't worry. I've tested this to death, even using a converted Q1 map to verify everything works as it should. Suffice it to say that Slipgate projectiles in 1.0 will move through the world with the exact same velocity and bounce characteristics as in Quakeworld.
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Assamite
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There's no female Slipgater because there's no female model in Quake 3 that really works for that class. We might address that further down the line.
What about Jaeger (PMS)? |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
   
Posts: 3330
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It has been considered, but after all, turning her hair into a "helmet" is a half-assed attempt. It'd be better to just slap a Ranger head (with different skin) on Major's body, or something like that.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Personally I'd rather see a completely new female model done using similar armor and helmet to what Ranger wears, kind of like how Crash is set up as a companion model to Doom. Maybe in the future we'll do something like that, but at present... well, Tab and I BOTH have little to no time to mod at the moment. Every time I think I can get some free time, something comes up. I'm still trying to get muzzle flashes in place for Doom, something I thought would be quick and easy. It's the quick part I'm having trouble with. Player models right now are right out until other more critical things can get done. 
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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Aye. I still need to make a Lost Soul model, and that's probably less than 1/10th of the work needed for a full player model.. Grmbl.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Nonanonymous
Dopefish
Posts: 7
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Does the Ranger model still change the color of his armor and pants to match your railgun colors? So far I haven't seen that happen other than in some of the screenshots hosted on this site.
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Xypher
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This might be a silly idea, but i just had a vision. I always remember doom rockets and their 8 direction sprites. Could this be done using the Doom powerup always facing code, based on angle to actual orientation? Every 45 degrees it allows the rocket to appear correct. You know what I mean? I think it would add some nostalgia feel to it. .gif) |
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Phoenix
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Possible yes, but that's one I think I'm going to pass on. There's nostalgia and then there's overkill. 
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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