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Lordbane2110
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I would like to add that doom isn't that strong true his speed, and sheer rocket spamming ability are his strengths but he is not the strongest class too many people ignore earth personally in order of strongest to weakest i would place them like so 1 Earth 2 Doom 3 Slippy 4 Arena 5 Strogg this may be a biased opinon, however as i'm no good with earth, and yet still can cream doomers with most of his weapons slippy could do with extra nails strogg is a bit slow, he didn't seem that slow in q2 deathmatch or q2 generations on the whole though if you getting beaten by doom play as him, learn his weakness, which classes weapons he's most vunerable too that way online you'll have a much better chance plus slippies RLauncher is the same speed it's always been. if you can't win with it, just practice i find Q3DM19 on Nighmare a good test but no on the whole i have no problem with doom, as long as you stop him getting armour he's frag bait no matter how fast he can run oh and Tab and Pho any chance of putting the mission poack weapons in for slippy as i would quite like to have my old lava nailgun back in fact if you could put back in all the mission pack weapons for all the class that would be cool  so what are the chances? |
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games keeper
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oh and Tab and Pho any chance of putting the mission poack weapons in for slippy as i would quite like to have my old lava nailgun back
in fact if you could put back in all the mission pack weapons for all the class that would be cool oh dear , here we go again . LORDBANE, be prepared to hear a little rant of the wirehead team where they will explain to you why to will not do that . and they are right about it . |
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Phoenix
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Tab: Your last post is providing information I need, and I'm not dismissing people's opinions, but the opinions of those who are not providing feedback don't do me much good if I don't know about them. I'm not saying either you nor Con are knee-jerking on criticisms, I'm saying I want to avoid a knee-jerk fix that might do more harm than good. You all know I'm one for balancing, I just don't want to screw anything up in the process, so my harsh stance is not personal, it's a check and balance against hasty decision making. I'd like to see how weapon switch behavior and correcting the movement physics (in the case of Slipgate) helps. We might also be running Doom around a hair too fast, like I said, I'm not discounting any of this. I'm used to dealing with Tekhead's rather pointed and relentless suggestion making and attempts to change Gen into something it should not be, so forgive me if I came off a little strong? My intent is never to insult anyone's intelligence here.
LordBane: I've often wondered about the mission pack weapons for a Team Arena mode, but the problem is we probably would not be able to do it for technical reasons in addition to sheer workload. I've never seen the Quake mission packs myself, only the Q2 mission packs. We've also run out of available weapon slots. There's a maximum of 16 available, which is a hard-coded number that cannot be changed. 14 of those are already used by Strogg. He has 12 weapons (if you include the grappling hook), and 2 weapon numbers are used by the code for enumeration purposes. I may be able to fudge one of those back, but it will take some investigation. If not, then at most we'd be able to add 2 new weapons per class, and Team Arena has 3 new weapons. That would mean one of them would get a "standard issue" replacement. Arena Gladiators would not be able to use all 3 of their TA weapons, so I tend to be of an "all or nothing" mindset as far as those go. Right now our intention is to do "standard issue" replacements across the board, such as lightning gun weapons for the TA Chaingun, grenade launchers for the TA prox launcher, and shotguns for the TA nailgun (which was a big nail shotgun anyway). If we did decide to throw in any interesting new weapons I'd need to run through the Q1 mission packs to see what they did and if they're worthwhile for Gen's gameplay purposes, and then we'd have to figure out how to invent additional weapons for Doom and Earth, and there's the question of workload since that's 12 new weapons, some would need from-scratch models and skins, sounds, and animations. We're not done with the ones we already have! In all likeliness we're probably going to just go with standard-issue replacements, but we'll see once we get closer to Team Arena compatibility implementation. A lot of this is going to depend on how fast we get everything else done, and whether or not we feel the weapon additions are going to be worth the extra effort.
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« Last Edit: 2005-02-27, 04:16 by Phoenix »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Understood. I tend to take things a bit too personally anyway.
The problem I have with TA stuff and mission pack weapons for any game, is that there's just too many stuff to deal with. Let's just see where we can get using the weapons we've got, and when that finally works smoothly. Even when that's done, I really think I'd like to see some Resurgence stuff prior to mission package ;]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Tonight's game had a lot of Doomers, and I took the win on the following maps with the following classes:
Simply Dead: Random
H2SO4: Strogg (No I did not whore the invulnerability)
Trial By Error: Slipgate (second go-round, first I was goofing off with the gauntlet)
Not quite Earth: Slipgate
I suck with Slipgate, I missed a LOT of railgun shots as Strogg, and yet I still did well against a boatload of Doomers. I'm not posting this as bragging rights, but just as additional information for the balance discussion. I'm having trouble doing the killing with Slipgate more than anything else owing to the movement problems, and I think his rocket splash could do a bit more damage than it's doing right now. Knockback feels great. I felt the movement problems most severely on Simply Dead. It is hard to get on those crates with Slipgate. You have to circle-jump just perfectly. Once I got a weapon I did decent, it's getting the weapons I was having the trouble with.
To be fair, I will admit I got a nice BFG9000 run on SD when I spawned as Doom, but only one run with it. For context, there was another Doomer that used the 9000 as often as he could. I still do exceedingly well with the Doomer, so I'm not the best metric to use for how well the class does on average. (I have some thoughts on this I'll post soon as well)
Strogg feels fine to me, even with just a 100 point rail. I used the rocket launcher, SSG, grenade launcher, and chaingun to good effect.
Earth feels fine. I really like the class now, I think it feels as close to perfect as we can get. Rob kills me just as easily with the mortar now as he did before. I had no trouble using the class, nor did I have trouble dying from it.
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« Last Edit: 2005-02-27, 10:24 by Phoenix »
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Phoenix
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In regards to class balance, I'm wondering, what should be our best metric? So far our playerbase tends to have two distinct groups: Those who play Gen a lot, and those who are brand new. Those who play Gen a lot have a specific class they tend to favor, and do well with. Those who are brand new usually grab a class and try it out. This lends itself to some interesting scenarios:
1) People who are long-time players who do extremely well with a particular class tend to make that class look very good.
2) Skill differences between long-time players can make one class look better than another.
3) People who are new players may find some classes easier to use than others and make them look good.
4) People who are new players may find some classes very difficult to use and make them look expecially bad.
5) Maps can favor one class heavily over another.
For example, say someone is new to Q3, and is new to Gen, and picks the Strogg Troopers. They get fragged repeatedly. This makes Strogg look bad. Take someone who is used to Q3, but not used to Gen. That person can make the Q3 class look especially good. Take someone who usually plays Doom, they pick the Q3 class, and the Q3 class looks especially wimpy. A specific class may be easier for newer players to use. That's not necessarily a balance factor, but more an "ease of use" question.
Now, take a lot of new players, and say that Doom is the "easier" class for new players to get some frags in. He runs fast, and can get up close in a hurry and unload some damage. Then throw in a few high-skill, Gen regulars. So, if more newer players use Doom, and get some frags, it makes Doom look good, whereas they might make the other new players using other classes look especially bad owing to learning curve for the other classes. I will grant that Doom tends to be the class that is "most easily used the most recklessly". There's no doubt in my mind it's easier to be reckless with it, hence the term "rabid Doomer".
Now let's deal with experienced players. Take someone like Rob. He plays Earth. He makes Earth look good, and tends to pound the daylights out of all but a few people on a regular basis. Tekhead made Slipgate look damned good, and some players like rdw I've seen make Slipgate look almost god-like. I make Doom look nearly undefeatable. At the same time, someone like dzJepp can give me a run for the money using Strogg when I'm Doom and make me work for those frags. I can do pretty good as Strogg, and make a server full of Doomers look like a server full of targets, depending on map of course. That complicates the equation to a large degree.
Complicte it even further by throwing in certain maps that heavily favor one class or another.
So now we see a severe shift in how the class balance appears, depending on the following criteria:
1) Number of experienced players
2) Class choice of experienced players
3) Number of inexperienced players
4) Class choice of inexperienced players
5) Level design and item placement
Also to consider are:
5) The "Purist" factor
6) The "Nostalgia" factor
That's a lot to take in, and is giving me a pretty stark picture of just how complex Gen's balancing game really is. Frankly, I'm amazed we've done as well as we have so far.
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Lordbane2110
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it does tend to be that way i play as slipgate and where as i'll never be as good as tekhead i do tend to favor it on the whole, due to my experience playing quake world it's just a case of which class you prefer oh pho as for the mission pack weapons for the quake 1 series they were the lava nailgun (basically the same normal nailgun but with lava nails instead of regular nails, they did a ton of damage and made a hissing sound when ever they hit anything) The Cluster Rocket / Grenade Launcher thing ( would be way to powerful for gen ) a Plasma Gun , Similar to doom only not as fast and a wickedly powerful proxy launcher (not like the one from Q3TA, which was a bit pants)  so you only need 2 weapon slots for quake 1 add ons as the lava nails were an upgrade for the original nailgun the cluster rockets / grenades were an alternate fire for said weapons so you would only need models for the plasma gun & Proxy Launcher I suppose you could do like painkeep with the nailgun in regards to the lava nails as it would make the original nailgun used more if you don't decide to add mission pack weapon it's not a great loss as it would seriously unbalance some of the classes |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Elite (3k+)
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For me, the metric feels a lot less confused. I do not excel with any one class, because I have no favourite. I rarely, if ever anymore, use a single class in an entire game (excepting [class]-only nights, obviously), and my scores and game results are not dependant of class used (shy from the aforementioned slippy on q3dm16 extreme example). That said, I win quite a few of at least the Euro games by a fair margin, regardless of class. When comparing a class's toughness, I don't just tick off # kills and say: 'well, he's got # ticks, and he's got # - 1, so the former is too strong'. My approach is based on mental notes made throughout all games I've played and witnessed so far (especially since .99e), on both Euro and US servers. Many dogfights are comparable, and after playing so often and so regularly, it becomes easier to try and make matches: "slipgate at the end of this hallway, earth at the other end, both packing plenty of rockets/m-shells.". Patterns emerge. I usually play with and against players who's styles I've seen evolve. I'm known (or at least known to myself) to live a LONG time when I'm not having an off day, and I've just noticed I can live through (clumsy) assaults by Earth, Strogg, Slipgate and Arena players, but very few by Doom. When I play with the class, I often find myself switching to other weapons in the same situations, just to keep it enjoyable. There's only so many times fellow players can appreciate being blown to dust by a clusterbomb of Doom rockets or a single shotgun blast in the face, before both they and I tire of it. This is an effect that I have with no other class, except perhaps sniper & railgun usage on q3dm16 (again that unbalanced map  ). And neither am I trying to brag, I'm merely saying that I do not have specialist skills or a favourite class, but I'm starting to get a least favourite class this way. The ease-of-use factor does come into play, I do agree. However, I feel Doom is both easy to use, and allows for perfection of usage (using his speed to the fullest, using the chaingun effectively, using rockets to deny opponents an exit to the room while closing in, etc, etc), which results in a class that is powerful, but not all dominating, in the hands of a newbie, and at the same time a class that is all powerful in the hands of a long-time player. Only the top players are known to make use of speeds to get to spawning items quickly, only top players are known to make 'quadruns' effectively and so on. The latter is the bigger problem, obviously. If Doom could only be used by players with a limited level of experience and skill, all would be fine and dandy - that would indeed help the balance the entire game - sounds like it'd be hard to enforce though ;] |
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« Last Edit: 2005-02-27, 15:24 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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ConfusedUs
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Tab, once again, says it better than I could.
Doom is extremely easy to get some frags with. Even as a newbie. With a good player, he's just a can-o-whoop-ass and we've got an electric can opener. If a newbie can spam a lot and get multiple frags, a good player can aim those shots and get many more.
In most situations, there's no defense against the RL. The only defense against the plasmagun is extreme range and open areas. The SSG is the most balanced of his weapons, as all you have to do is dodge effectively. The chaingun is deadly at any range in the hands of an experienced player; newbies are deadly with it at close and medium range.
The mega-spamminess of the Doom guns is the biggest problem. There is no problem just carpeting an area with rockets or plasma, or firing the chaingun at a group of players a bit down the hall. Either way is a sure frag, and probably more.
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Phoenix
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I would disagree that there's no defense whatsoever against the rocket launcher. I know several players who manage to dodge them quite often. I will agree that Doom rockets tend to fly often, and they do tend to blow the crap out of things. This is partly owing to the fact that he has two weapon pickups and ammo types that provide the rocket launcher and boxes of bombs to go with it, so it's hard to not run across a Doomer toting a rocket launcher and at least 5 bombs. Earth's mortar takes time to refire, and he's slow, so it's not so much a problem for him now that the weapon has been tweaked to what I would consider a near-perfect state. Slipgate doesn't get a Rocket Launcher for the Grenade Launcher pickup, so while his ammo might be equally as useful, his weapon spawns are not. Strogg and Arena have split ammo and aren't relevant.
I think the main problem lies in availability. I've mentioned on the Beta forum, but I'll also mention here for public discussion, that the original game only gave you 2 rockets at pickup. We kept it at 5 just to stay consistent with the other classes. Putting in a "low" ammo count of 1 rocket (Doom's small rocket pickup) for the grenade ammo would seem like too severe change to me, owing to the scarcity of grenade ammo and the fact that Slipgate and Earth both get the same useful quantity for their main projectile weapon, however changing the ammo pickup in the gun itself to 2 for either spawn is something I'm more than willing to test out. You'd have to place your shots a lot more carefully until you could find some ammo crates or a nice juicy Skippy backpack. That would hopefully cut back on the frequency of running into a Doomer toting around 5 rockets, unloading all 5 on a freshly spawned player, running over the nearest GL/RL spawn and having another 5 to do the same with. There's also the direct hit damage to consider. I know I'm hesitant on changing that, but if it's direct hits as opposed to splash that's doing the most brutal of the killing I could set them to the 100 + random 20 that everyone else is using. I really don't know how much that would help when Rocket #2 lands on you though...
The other note I made was the chaingun. We can lower the damage down to 10 from 15 so it's not so punishing a gun, especially since it's also a multiple-spawn weapon, having pickups for both railgun and lightning gun, and that pinpoint accuracy for those who know how to use it. I really do not want to tinker with the plasma. It's not a super-common spawn, there's usually only one on a map. Honestly I see a lot more rocket and chaingun kills than plasma. Most plasma kills I see are because someone ran headlong into the Doomer after rounding a corner, they got cornered during a firefight, or the Doomer found a crowd and sprayed into a few weak combatants. Any of those situations would result in dead meat with just about any weapon except the pistol. You'll never outmatch the plasma rifle on a weapon-for-weapon basis with something like a nailgun or hyperblaster, but against a chaingun or shaft it's got a more even footing. I think if we tweak back the chaingun a bit, the plasma will fill Doom's version of the Q1 shaft slot, and the chaingun will be his "super-nailgun". Putting him strong vs weak, and weak vs strong might actually help to balance in its own way instead of just hacking weapon damages, flight radii, etc. The one area I will not touch is refire rates, for any class that has an old-school weapon to draw from. That's got much more of a class-feel consideration than damage or projectile bounding box.
I realize Doom's weapons tend to be spammy by nature. Unfortunately that's part of the class, and difficult to work around without destroying weapon feel and function. I'd like to give the changes to the rocket and chaingun, along with the frames code switch time changes (once coded) a serious testing out. If we still have problems with Doom being overly dominant on a regular basis we can always tweak from there.
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« Last Edit: 2005-03-01, 17:15 by Phoenix »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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The proposed changes sound very good to me, especially when keeping the frame-based changes in mind.
In regards to the plasmagun; I think it only kicks the shit out of everything in crowded games. When there's a central area where there's a bunch of players fighting, a simple fire and forget burst usually yields an easy pair of frags, that are harder to come by without such rapid fire projectiles. I can easily live with it, though. I also believe it took quite a while in Doom before you could fire the gun again after a burst, but it's been too long for me to know exactly how long or what effect that would have - if I'm right about that, it would probably help too.
Like you say, with the changes to the chaingun, the plasma deserves to be powerful again.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Lordbane2110
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Here Here I Agree with Tab and Pho Although the Chaingun with Doom is Powerful and i have just tested it against a few bots and it is quite accurate which if i recall from doom and doom 2, it was nothing like as accurate you did have to be right on top of somebody to get that sort of hit ratio maybe the hit boxes are bigger, but as not being much of a coder i wouldn't know so yeah it should be tweaked, not nerfed just tweaked so that the Plasma Rifle will rule again  |
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ConfusedUs
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That sounds good to me pho: 2 rockets per gun pickup. That'll keep the ammo counts down enough to actually have a chance to dodge them all. Five rockets in 3 seconds in a small area is hard to dodge.
I'd actually wait for the doom frames system before changing the damage for a direct hit. If the rockets are going to be that much harder to use, then it may just do the trick.
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games keeper
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Putting him strogg vs weak, and weak vs strong is that a mistake I see :p |
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Phoenix
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*Gives games keeper a "humiliation" award.*  Corrected.
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games keeper
Elite
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first time I read your post to the bottem and I found a mistake |
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