games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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btw , on polycount and fileplanet there is also a
doom revenant , arachnatron and Imp you can download .
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Nahand
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... aside of all illegal and work-heavy points on adding more models per class, i would definitely agree with some of his suggestions. The point here, though, is not to fall in his temptation of wanting to make every enemy into a playable model for the MOD. I definitely would like to play with a grey-dark-and-some-reds skin AND model of a DooM Zombie Sargeant (shotgun guys, next to regular zombies, in DooM hierarchy), and the Bones idea of adding a simple colored shoulder pads (even without any weapon) to a white (-ish) skeleton is also appealing. Trying to make an Arch-Vile or a CyberDeamon tends to fell cheesy and out of place. We all remember those as those bigger, thougher ENEMY bastards: they should stay that way... Adding a blue-uniform nazi soldier like those at DooM II lvl 31 would also sound nice  ... |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Posts: 3330
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I don't see how a Revenant is not big and tough? He certainly wasn't a simple human-sized skeleton with shoulder pads. Load up doom and look at it again:  Ofcourse you can't tell the size from a picture like that, but look at its structure: It isn't a skeleton, it's a zombie - there's a fleshiness to it that lacks on 'Bones'. It's wearing armor and it walks VERY differently from bones, in any case. Here's something that I'd sooner pick for a Revenant:  It was modeled by Demon (apparantly) and skinned by Dark Horizon. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 15:05 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Nahand
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... *puts GEN hat of oficial PR agent* but Tabun sir, GEN is not about a direct take on those games represented, but rather a free approach to those, even with some artistic liberties :p ... ... more seriously, making that Bones idea would make it a"remake" -ish Revenant wannabe while keeping it "original" in GEN, not in anyway infringing copyrights, making illegal (the 'oh so many times question brought to light' )(just like the HellKnight *someone* uses  )... ... our own Bones ... ... and Arena needs more models, or at least a shitload more skins (do not throw that toilet seat at me, Tab!)... |
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Nahand
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... more! Quake 3 Arena wanted a Quake 2 enemy model but the Quake 2 tank was obviously out of place for such a fast, competing game. What did Id do? Tank Jr, and it works like a charm ... ... and the point about Revenant's shoulder mounted launchers brings the "issue" i have with hipothetically including CyberDeamon: they have weapon things onto themselves. Doesn't fit/feels fake, to make them MP player models. Again the Tank Jr example - he doesn't have a mounted arm blaster/chaingun, or a retractable shoulder-mounted rocker launcher. Id *adapted* the idea to Arena "standarts". Just what GEN team has been doing all along? ... |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 15:16 by Nahand »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Certainly, Tank Jr. is pretty damned good: it is also a model made for exactly that purpose. Bones is an ugly model. It is an annoying model. It is a badly skinmapped model with mirrored bits all over the place. Slacking off and being easily satisfied is not the same as taking artistic liberties. Trust me on this one, I know what kind of liberties we can and will take with Generations, and if I'd reasoned like that, we'd have reskinned Quake 3 weapons to 'match' Quake 2's for instance. Be very thankful we don't work that way  (i.e. We use those 'liberties' to add details, not to leave them out) |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 15:21 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Nahand
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... sooooooooo... we're in for a full blown *own* "dwarfed" Revenant model for GEN, then? :p :rules: ...
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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If that would not get us foxed: perhaps. But like you said, big monsters have no place running around like puny gladiators. Their place is in single player, and that's perhaps where Resurgence comes in...
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 15:22 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Nahand
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... fine. Gimme the Zombie Sargeant :rules: ... |
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Moshman
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That Revenent model is good, but the pose is all wrong, looks like he's got constapation. And he reminds of Beavis for some reason.  |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 17:03 by Little Washu »
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Gnam
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Yeah, lol, I was going to say, that revenant model is OK but the animation sucks ass. And yes, it reminds you of Beavis because Beavis used to strike that pose when excited (ie looking at GWAR videos, hot chicks, or turning into Cornholio and requesting teepee for his bunghole.)
As far as an 'enemy' model for Doom, I think the best route would be something like a "Cyberdemon Jr". It would be like a Cyberdemon, but closer to human size, and since they all have the same basic body structure (horns, arm cannon, goat legs) it could be easily reskinned into a Hell Knight or Baron of Hell. You could probably set it so the weapon models attached inside the arm cannon, so enough of the weapons' barrels would stick out to show which weapon the player was using, but it would still apear that the demon was shooting with the arm cannon and using different types of ammo.
I also agree some zombie models would be nice. A few years ago I did a reskin set of zombie uniforms for the Doom model, including a tan "zombieman" and black "shotgun guy" based on the veteran skin (which I thought was closed to looking like the original Doom guy). They didn't feature new heads or blood stains, because they were supposed to represent live Doom soldiers and sargeants before they became zombies. However, zombie heads and bloodstains could easily be added. In the end the skins weren't that great, and Tab could do a much better job, but they served to illustrate the concept. If anyone wants to see them, I made a thread for them on here a long time ago, and you can find em if you search. Anyway, I think something done along these lines would do well to provide more authentic Doom-themed player models/skins to Gen.
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Phoenix
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As far as an 'enemy' model for Doom, I think the best route would be something like a "Cyberdemon Jr"....You could probably set it so the weapon models attached inside the arm cannon, so enough of the weapons' barrels would stick out to show which weapon the player was using, but it would still apear that the demon was shooting with the arm cannon and using different types of ammo. I think you need to take a look at the Cyberdemon 2000 model for Quake 2, that was part of the Generations Q2 project and later released as a player model. I had thought about giving it vweaps to replace the generic arm gun, but never got around to either contacting the author for permissions, let alone having enough time to actually do it.
The problem with trying something like that with Gen's Doom Warriors class is how is his arm going to contain this:
That's why arm-mounted weapons don't work well in Q3. Q2 they were fine since Q2's vweap system allowed custom, per-playermodel weapons, and before anyone asks, no. Gen is not getting a custom weapon model system. The model parsing code is already complex enough as it is! |
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Moshman
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Well then some innovative modeling techniques should come into play in the modeling of an arm with the BFG in mind.
Edit:
I have an idea, nothing to do with modeling but a skin.
Now what you could do, is take the skin image, and place a alpha channel on the bar thingies, then they would be transparent, thus invisible! The polys would still in essence, be there, but be completely transparent.
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-05, 20:11 by Little Washu »
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scalliano
Elite
Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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Heh heheheheheheh heh  The Q4Gladiator and Q4Hybrid PPMs don't carry their weapon models ... |
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Thomas Mink
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I think NOT seeing when someone had a BFG out and ready to go would give a slightly unfair advantage. You'd have no warning at all until it started warming up. That's very little time to find a proper hiding place.
Now you might say there was no problem in Doom... well ok... then give Doom his rifle, Slippy can get his gun that looks oddly like a grenade launcher but shoots everything. Dunno what Grunt or Sarge would get. Visor and the arena dudes would just have to live with it, being out of the loop.
(find the sarcasm, get a cookie!)
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-06, 00:13 by ~SpAwN~ »
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Gnam
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The problem with trying something like that with Gen's Doom Warriors class is how is his arm going to contain this... This is a long shot, but.... Is it possible for the model to have a different weapon holding animation for the BFG? If so, maybe you could make it so the BFG is carried in the Cyberdemon's free hand, instead of in the arm cannon. Or perhaps, you could just let the BFG be bigger than the arm cannon, and look like the BFG was the arm cannon. I guess you'd have to just try it an see how bad it looks (assuming it is possible). Of course, logically, it's not very beleivable that the Cyberdemon would just instantly rip the cannon off his arm and intantly install a hand-BFG, but then it's also not very logical that characters carry all their 10+ heavy weapons down their pants and instantly draw each one specifically on command. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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And all that for a single model that shouldn't even ever be controlled by a player? If it ever comes to that, why not just let Resurgence code take care of model probs?
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Moshman
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Anyway, I know this is a mod.. and I know it won't feel exact.. but being told it will feel extremely close kinda gets one (me) in a mood to post a few things. No, I wasn't comparing physics.. or anything of that nature. I was looking at minor things really. Things I feel go with overall presentation.
Just a simple 'no' or whatever will suffice, and you'll never hear anything on the topic from me again. But with 1.0 looming in the future, and them being on my mind for God knows what reason, I figured I might bring them up.
Now, I'm not saying 'This must be done or I'm quitting!' or anything of the like. Just friendly... things... from an OCD Hellspawn. (Couldn't find an appropriate word there, sorry).
I'm going to borrow Spawn's disclaimer and imply all its meaning into this post. ;^) I don't know if such things have been discussed but I'll give it a go. Green Amour [/u] Green Amour would be awesome for us mappers. It will give us the ability to cleanly distribute amour throughout the level, without the use of amour shards. Amour shards are good and all, but the more there are the sloppier the map is. Amour shards should be used in groups of 2-4, and if we are making a doom level, we don't want to place a giant group of 25 amour bonuses, and it will translate into 125 amour for another class. Basically is gives mappers more options, and a green arena class amour would look awesome! ;^) Slipgate Armor Shard Model [/u] Even though this model looks absolutely cool, and the Tabs did a great job on it, I think choosing a Runestone for an armor shard is rather odd. When I first seen one of these, I thought, ?Cool! A power up!? A good analogy for this would be ?fool?s gold?. Again, I?m not bashing the effort that has gone into it, nor am I implying that it was intentional to fool players. Don?t take it the wrong way. I would suggest a knee pad or some feature from the Slipgater body armor, to better indicate that it is indeed armor. Doom Single Rocket [/u] Again just as I described in the Green Armor, this gives mappers more options when making a doom style map. Maybe the alternates for the other classes be armor or heath shards. Strogg Useable Powerups [/u] I haven?t played Quake 2 that much, but one thing I remember, is that you manually activate the Quad Damage ?Item?. I think this should be implied to all Powerups. Ammo Backpacks [/u] This is from Doom and not Slipgate BTW. :^P This would be awesome to implement. Super Charge [/u] This would be sweet as an alternating ?power-up?. This is the thing that gives you 200 health and armor. |
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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about that revanant model .
sombody should contact demon again , he is the 1 that also made the imp and arachnatron model .
and altough he stopped making q3 models he was also in the warks with a demon
model , a mancubus model , cacodemon , chaingunner and cyberdemon model .
anyway , maybe he still has those models , none animated that is .
2 years ago when I asked he was OK with it that we used it for gen . he even sended the complete packet to me ( but due comp crashes over the years I lost them )
but I seem to remember that I gave them 2 pho 2 ( unless he lost them 2 ? )
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Thomas Mink
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Ammo backpacks were in Quake... only in the multiplayer environment. In Doom all they did was give a very small amount of every type of ammo, and double your total ammo capacity. In Quake, when you died, you dropped all of your ammo and the current weapon you were using. At the end of a QWDM match, there was usually always at least 1 backpack running around that had near full ammo (100 shells, 200 nails, 100 grenades, 100 cells). I say 'near full' because I'm assuming the person carrying it was using at least 1 weapon... So... the way they're used in Gen... they were from Quake. Unless you mean like... 'This is about the backpacks from Doom' or something... then that would make this post totally useless. *cough* |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-10, 01:18 by ~SpAwN~ »
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