Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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I hate people that when start play the game they say : "OMG MY CLASS IS SO UNFAIR!". That makes me sick! But the worse of that is when they say it's Wirehead's fault. PEOPLE, PLEASE STOP SAYING THAT!!! If you want to rant about that, rant it to ID. They're the ones who made the class values like weapon damage...  
*stamina finally lowering*
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Phoenix
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I agree. This goes into the whole "class balance" issue. Gen's done its best to balance it out so no one class consistently mows over all the others, and so no one class consistently gets its gibs handed back to it. I still get complaints about balance, item strength, weapon strength, etc, both inside and outside the team. It's part of the development process. If someone's getting hosed with a class, then try improving your skill before blaming the game. Maybe that headon charge into the Slipgate Thunderbolt wasn't such a bright idea, so try changing tactics a bit.
That being said, this is why we have a "balanced" mode of play. With 1.0 we're going to be introducing "old-school" mode, which takes the kid gloves completely off. Then people are going to see a huge difference between as identical as we can make it to the originals (within reason, Doom's not going to be a 2D sprite), and a more balanced game that leans toward the oldschool as much as possible.
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-19, 20:33 by Phoenix »
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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games keeper
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Posts: 1375
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woot no longer jumping/swimming doom  btw wil you ad in the 99.a boomstick ? |
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Makou
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Yeah, sure. And since Wolf3D never had multiplayer, the Earth class won't even be playable in oldschool mode. |
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If you see a "Rona Altana" out there on the internet somewhere, that's probably me
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
  
Posts: 3330
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Actually, if someone correctly detects and denounces a class imbalance, then they can say it's Wirehead's fault. Because, like Phoenix describes, we are not remaking the classes as exact copies of the original games.
Actually, what annoys me more is when people whine about weapons or attributes getting 'nerfed' (which usually simply means they get normalized to some degree) and bringing up arguments like 'but it wasn't like this in [original game]!'.
As for class-imbalance issues: this is generally a tough problem to tackle, because there is always a fair share of non-arguments and faulty reasoning being applied. People have biases both towards modification as well as conservation. Sometimes people throwing tantrums destroy their own valid core points by the way they bring them to light, or accompany them by flawed arguments or irrelevant observation.
We have the tough job of finding the right combination of settings through the forest of bullshit, whining and misunderstanding. So perhaps it's a good idea to think of that when you have a point to make.. ;]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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LeeMon
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You know, if someone whines about every class, we're doing alright by me. ;^)
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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I think that the class balance is no more a problem. All of them have balanced weapons. BTW what was the problem with the .99a boomstick?
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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the knockback was so big that you could blast sombody to the other side of the level .
you could even make it somekind of sport if you where with 3 people on q3dm17
the doomguy would shoot sombody from upclose , this guy would fly over the level . and sombody with a railgun should try to hit the flying player with a railgun or sniper before he lands in the void .
it was an awesome weapon .
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Phoenix
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Games Keeper is infatuated with the "absurd knockback Doom Combat Shotgun" of .99a, and has been wanting it back ever since. Well, here's a tip. You can increase knockback of ALL weapons by altering the g_knockback cvar. So Games, it's not really gone, if you think about it that way.
Lee: The problem I have is there's a select few individuals that constantly gripe about the Doom class, and only the Doom class. They've always griped about the Doom class, and no matter how much I've balanced the class out to fix actual gameplay concerns it's never enough. No matter what I do, they'd probably still gripe about it until I'd eventually recode him into an Arena Gladiator for all intents and purposes. I can guarantee that won't happen. Gen isn't a game where you can just run items, stay tanked, pwn the server with l337 sk1llz, and expect to never, ever get fragged. I know that's how some people might prefer it, but if that's the case they're playing the wrong mod. I think a few of them realized that recently as well and went back to playing OSP or whatever. Gen's all about action, and sometimes that means getting fragged repeatedly no matter how good you (think you) are. 
I know there's a lot of Doomers and sometimes getting ganged up on can be frustrating, but I find myself griping about aggressive Doomers a lot less than I do railgunners who just snipe from cover and always stay out of reach, or Slipgaters who are very good at knocking me around the level with a rocket launcher that I can't hit the broad side of a tank with. Doomers tend to get in your face, which to me means it's that much easier to blast them, especially with that paper-thin armor. I think it's the whole "in your face" playing style of the class that gets some players' feathers ruffled at times. Fortunately, since .99f I've not really seen any complaints in the public feedback area. There's been a few balance concerns being internally discussed still, one of which I agree with, but the Feedback thread isn't loaded with "class X is way too strong" posts, which to me is a good thing. I think Gen's normal playing mode is almost perfectly balanced out. That may well change once our correct weapon switch timers are all in place. We'll just have to wait and see.
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-20, 17:48 by Phoenix »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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I'll just count myself out of that group that 'gripes no matter what', because I feel I have valid arguments when I do complain. And no, dying once in a while is not counted among those. (in fact, what annoys me more is playing with a class or weapon that provides easy kills)
The up-close and therefore easier to kill argument would work if Doom wasn't fast. The speed makes him hard to hit even when you are aiming correctly (see lag-issue-discussion etc). I'd also say calling his armor 'paper thin' is going a bit far. But hell, I guess the point isn't to go through all the details again, the point is that Doom is too strong at this time. That the class works better for reckless attack is not directly related, as far as I'm concerned. That said, I have plenty of faith in future balancing adjustments and their effect on the overall balance.
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-20, 18:24 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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I'll just count myself out of that group that 'gripes no matter what', because I feel I have valid arguments when I do complain. I'd never include you in that group for the very same reason. Anyone who brings up valid issues doesn't fall into that catagory. I just know there's a few who have been "rabid anti" since the beginning, and we just hear about Doomers more often because it's a popular class. To be fair, we've got a few "Hate Slipgate" and some "GODD@#N DUALGATS" people too, so I'm not going out of my way to point anyone out here. I just consider it part of the expected class alliance (and bickering) that accompanies complex gameplay of this type. Everyone has their favorite cookies, and everyone has things that make their head explode. 
On the other hand, the fact that there are a larger percentage of Doomers on the server results in people encountering the Doom class more often, and hence dying more often by Doomers than by other classes. I seem to remember this being a discussion topic before. One may counter-argue that the class is popular because of an imbalance providing an unfair advantage, something I can't completely subscribe to when I see people who favor other classes specifically despite any balance or lack thereof, and especially those who go for random class almost exclusively. It may play a part in it, but I think it's more a preference issue than anything else. To me at least it leads me to ponder if a big part of the "feels like it's overbalanced" is the fact that we've had too high a concentration of Doom fans in proportion to the other classes. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-20, 19:01 by Phoenix »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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I hear ya. In some cases, those 'things' are even players ;]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Footman
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The only potential balance problem to me is Earth's Dual Gats. Far too easy to get, and in crowded games and small maps, they're inescapable.
I rarely use them myself, though. Some people, however, tend to abuse the priviledge of getting a BFG class weapon in maps where none exist.
I know killing the weilder will yeild a BFG, but the problem lies in killing the weilder. Unless you can snipe at him, or he's low on health/armor, he'll mow you down.
I also know those things suck up ammo at a pretentious rate, but that's not always a problem to the weilder, since 90% of ammo pick ups provide bullets.
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Phoenix
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You can see why we have a tough job balancing the game out. 
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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An Earth with Dual gats can be easily take down by a Doomer.I find the Doom's chaingun quite strong against the other classes, specially when the others don't have a decent weapon. But it's nothing that can't be solved with the proper gun.
I think all maps in Gen have a gun that fits perfectly in the needs of a class. Earth has always the chance to get the Gat or the Dual Gats, Doom can always get the SSG, Slippy can get an explosive weapon or that damn fast-as-hell SSG, Strogg can get the SSG or the Chaingun easily and the Arena can get any weapon, since any weapon for Gladiator will do. And the most obvious weapon is the BFG. I think that killing an Earth with the Dual Gats is one of the most rewarding expirience during a match in a map without a BFG, since he/she WILL give a BFG, and that gives a person a great chance to frag on.
I think Gen has a good class balance. All of them are equally (did i write this correctly) balanced, since they can kill each other.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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I'm glad we ourselves don't use that criterium for deciding when the balance is acceptable. A Strogg player with Handicap 10, only a blaster and no powerups can kill a tanked Arena player firing the old BFG. It's possible - but not likely.
What comes closer to being a signal of class imbalance is annoyance with something. If a large group of people often find themselves ticked off by something, there's a chance that there's a flaw. (work with me here, I'm ofcourse not thinking of 'bad play', like chatkilling etc) - So it was with an older version of Slipgate's rocketlauncher. It was often undodgeable and annoyed everyone but the most vehement of Slippy-fans a lot. Same goes for Earth's Mortar and tankability.
As we analyze and tackle these problems, we get ever closer to an acceptable degree of class-balance. Right now we're at a point where the most noteable problem is still detectable in everyday play. (If you've never been annoyed by the way Doom currently outshines the other classes, you are definately part of a minority) - In the next stage, I'm sure there will be more players who will find no problems, as opposed to those who do, until there will be too little 'complainers' and thus too little annoyance left to regard these issues as balance problems that need to be dealt with.
IMO, that day has not yet come, but it probably will, soon. :]
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-21, 15:10 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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I really think a big part of the Dual Gats problem will be fixed when you can see that Earther toting them around akimbo instead of just getting hosed by a single gat that's actually filling in for two. The sound is a dead giveaway, but usually it's too late once they start shooting. If the player's behind you then you're probably fragbait anyway, but if you can see them coming you stand a better chance of dealing with it. I know when I see a player with a BFG out and ready I change what I'm doing really fast. A single gatling gun doesn't always appear intimidating. THIS does:
Note that the guns are placeholders from before .99a, so if they look like they're the old Wolf guns from Generations Quake 2 they are. I had this working before Team Arena changes were implemented into the codebase, which completely screwed up my code, and I've just not gotten around to reimplementing and completing it. I can assure you that it can and will be done for 1.0 though.
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Moshman
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within reason, Doom's not going to be a 2D sprite
I would personally enjoy this. High res sprites? Hell yeah! I mist say that models looks good and all (this applies to everything else) but 2d stuff holds more details. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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I'd say the amount of detail in a screen representation of a model and a sprite is related to the distance you are from it, the resolution of the sprite, the quality of the renderer (lighting aspects being the most important here, and stuff like per-pixel/normal mapped rendering).
The translation of scaling (for distance) works differently for models and sprites. Sprites have only 2 dimensions, so the bitmap is simply resized, throwing out information that doesn't fit. When models are scaled, they are rendered on-screen at different sizes. Details on the skin and in the lighting pattern are then weighed by the depth of the model - ie. the 3rd dimension.
Aside from obvious things, such as the model actually having more details because it has more information per pixel to work from, I'd still say 2d stuff holds less detail. The illusion of it holding more probably stems from the fact that (out)lines and shapes can be as rounded as the resolution allows, while polygons are responsible for those in models. If the skin-map is not several times larger than the sprite, you will also have a lower effective resolution for the skin, compared to the sprite.
I guess that a model has more detail to offer if you compensate for the fact it has to have
more information available to create a 2d representation than a sprite does. A one megabyte model will look less detailed than a one megabyte sprite. But only if we're talking a static object which is not affected by lightmaps of any sort :]
Honestly though, if it were at all feasible, I'd be for making a sprite-mode in Generations. Just for kicks. It isn't, alas, and going through all the trouble just for a laugh wouldn't be worth it.
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« Last Edit: 2005-06-22, 11:52 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Yeah, not to mention that the coder's cup already runneth over enough to flood the world yet a second time even if it were. 
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