Thanks, Sham. You got there first.

My reason for mentioning dinosaurs is that I for one am not about to renounce everything I personally believe just because of a few quotes from the Bible. I am a Darwinist. I am a believer in science and accept that in order for science to develop it has to make a few mistakes along the way, by the same token that both Testaments should be open to interpretation. The theory of evolution stretches to dinosaurs in that it is believed by the scientific community that birds are directly descended from these creatures. My one-word retort was in response to the first post which essentially stated that science doesn't have a leg to stand on when faced by the overwhelming truths contained in the Bible. I am compelled to disagree, hence my somewhat ambiguous post.

I totally agree with your last sentence, and there is the possibility that the theories of Man's evolution currently championed in schools could be incorrect. It wouldn't be the first time it happened (just look at Hippocrates' theory of the Elements, that was used for hundreds of years before it was discovered to be completely groundless), but that's how mankind learns. I am willing to accept that we came from apes, simply because I personally can't come up with a better explanantion and I have never heard anyone else doing likewise.

Wether I believe in a god is not important, but if he existed, wouldn't evolution be a good way for him to make humans?

Any other way would destroy faith, as we would have proof of his existance. This way gives us free will on the matter.

Like I said before. Science is God. God wants us to explore the beauty of His creations, it is His gift to us. Science and God are one in the same, and that is something people fail to reconize on both sides of the issue.

Nature then.

*me commits suicide

This topic really disappoints me. I wanted to talk about what I posted in my first post. Not people's rude single-mindedness, and ethnic of how people reply to posts or whatever, I'm confused. BTW I refer to a few pages back. I was on vacation so that's why I was gone. But really Tab, I don't think you were trying to be hostile, there is no intent shown. Let me ask you something though, did you read though the entire thing? Because so far, no one has analyzed it in detail, just said it was single minded. And my focus was not on evolution entirely, there are different topics. Why we still speak of evolution?

You know something too. Being an atheist has not set me free. People become these atheists because they want to "break free from the bonds of religion" well I say that atheism is a religion, as is the secular humanist pop culture.
God was the one that set me free from the evil deeds I was committing, He convicted me, and I have repented, and my life turned upside down. You know, sometimes, in order for someone to believe and accept the truth, their life has to really be flushed down the toilet a few times over in order to get it though their skull, denial will only tighten the bonds. What is more beautiful, God or evolution? What would you rather have? Death and cease to have an existence, or feel the power of the resurrection of the body in eternal happiness? I know that I'm not just a pile of bio-waste with no soul that makes my life meaningless. God gave me talents. And I think Pho knows the story of the master and his three servants that were given talents to invest in, I don't want to be the third servant. My talents such as art, music and writing, I use for God. Why would someone just have these talents? You know, there was a story in the news of this little 10 year old girl, who paints masterpieces that looks so real, and sell for millions of dollars. She paints biblical scenes. And what is even more interesting is that her family wasn't Christian at all, she herself brought them to God.

I want to get to know everyone here. I want to see the person, past their avatar, past their signature. Since I want this I will tell you my story. My father used to be a taxi driver in St. Paul Minnesota. Driving taxi was his passion. Until he received a passenger that gave him a tip, except it was cocaine. My dad became a crack addict that day, meanwhile my mother was making plans to snatch me and take me to Michigan with various family members from my mother?s side of the family. She abducted me on Halloween night, the night my dad was going to take me out. I was only 4 years old. As my father slipped deeper and deeper into crack cocaine, he was depressed out of his mind that he lost me. He blamed a lot of things but himself! The only thing that stimulated contact between my dad and I was the fact my mother wanted child support money. My dad busted his ass for me, but in vein. For my mother was not using these child support checks for me, she was using them to fund various frat parties on school nights. She would drink all night, drink drink drink and snort LSD, on my dad?s dime. Back at home my father was having suicidal thoughts. He ended up eating ketchup sandwiches and living at the Union Gospel Mission. The pastor talked to him, and talked him into joining this program there called the Discipleship Program. Things got worse however. My father developed this disease that spread infections throughout the body. His body literally swelled up like a balloon. He had to take steroids. The doctors didn?t know what he had, for this was an extremely rare and incurable disease. He went to various kinds of doctors, specialists, and they couldn?t identify the disease he had. He had it for many more years until the brothers of the Discipleship prayed for him, and literally 3 days later, the disease went away and never came back. The doctors were stunned. Back in Michigan, my mother?s boyfriend moved in. Now my dad told me about god and I believed, but here is the part where it all fell apart. The boyfriend would tell me about evolution and all this crap. He beat me for disagreeing with him. Eventually it became routine. So I eventually believed the deception. I was only 7. Things got so bad, I was sleeping in filth, had no food in the house. I was 30 pounds. Until one day a lightning storm came and knocked an old apple tree in our yard, onto the house and caused extensive damage. My mother?s welfare wouldn?t pay for it, so she had to move. My dad took the opportunity, and moved my mother into his apartment. In the mist of this prove that lied in front of my own two eyes; I still was an atheist at 12 years old. Then me any my buddies were messing around a lot. Then I started smoking pot. Instead of God freeing me I thought, pot could do a better job. I smoked it to relieve depression; I smoked it to relieve all of my problems instead of praying. I started to receive a heavily hit of depression. I was smoking a bag of pot, by myself, I cried, and for a second I said, ?Jesus help me.? I thought for a second, then my addiction disappeared. I haven?t smoked since. Prayer saved my life, God saved my life. Now I have to pay it forward, my faith demands it. And now at 18 years old, I went from crackhouse, to real house, atheist to beleiver. Coincidence? No way in hell.

You said in the past that I can't see from another person's perspective, well I've been there believe it or not. I know the other side, and believe me, it is a battle every day sticking with the true side. (and I say true to the definition, not some multilateral crap of multiple truths) And trust me further that to me, the wrong side is more appetizing and appealing. My natural attraction to that side effects me everyday. If there was no God, I would not have the power to believe the truth. God is the only one sustaining me.

I read it in its entirety. Admittedly, that was hard to do, since the urge to respond to details in it just kept on building - since responding to the whole selection would not be helpful, as I described (which is the heart of the matter for me, so try not to be too upset about the thread not taking the exact shape you'd liked to see), responding to details would be worse.

Your last paragraph again shows heavy signs of preaching. So, without commenting on it futher, and knowing that you mean it well, do you understand the counterproductivity of your message and the form you bring it in? You will probably never really know 'Forum-People' - or at least not all of them. You will be even less likely to convert them with the kind of arguments and in the way you do here.
Your struggle is yours. Mine is mine - here, we've probably all been through rough spots, known addiction and have lost loved ones (for instance) - we all deal with it in our own way, and my ethics are true. I won't be hurt when you try to deny other persons concepts of what is right, wrong and true, but I will be offended, and I will deliberately take it as an insult.


As a side note: Atheism is indeed a religious conviction (religion has connotations of structure and hierarchy for me, so I'll avoid using that term here). It assumes there is no god, and takes that assumption on faith - very much in the same way any world religion assumes its base claims. Atheists 'feel' an absence of something higher, believers 'feel' a presence. I feel neither, or am not ready to decide how my experience should be explained - and I don't want others second guessing me on this either, tyvm - (empirical) agnosticism makes the most sense in that case, which is what I would consider myself part of, if pressed to 'pick a side'.

I also think we should argue about it, while respecting other views, as long as it's constructive. If neither constructive nor respectful - then I agree shamb, it should end there.

Pho: I don't consider that an accusation, so it's all good. I am always annoyed by any kind of hard-set conviction that rules out any other possibility, rules out any variations or flaws in it. Especially if it's brought in a way that clearly indicates that what others think is both inconsequential as well as the result of lesser reasoning or understanding, experience, weakness or simply 'being unworthy' in one way or another. An 'Atheist claim' stating all believers are weak and must bow to reason, is just as offensive to me as a 'Christian claim' that the lost and restless sheep must find their shepherd and repent.

During the conflicts with dev/null, I saw only trolling and insults for the sake of making an
insult. He also once admitted to not showing his true ideas and simply kicking shins for the sake of it. (which I did respond to, if you recall, since I figured it to be an important and explanatory message)
I also missed out on quite a few 'discussions', because I never really read along at times. I can remember only two such conflicts, and couldn't take either seriously enough to fully read and respond to, at the time. If I know someone trolls to get their kicks, I will not bite.

Another thing that often plays a role (perhaps less on these forums, mind) is that most atheist statements I've seen do not prescribe a way of life for others. While they still claim to have an exact knowledge of a universal truth, they do not usually wax poetically about the story of their lives and how everyone should follow in their lavender-scented footsteps. This is just my personal experience, and explains why I might be less easily offended by atheist claims. I'm sure you've seen more dev/null's than I have, for instance.

I would also like to add to Phoenix's last paragraph that you not only should try to avoid making it sound condescening, but to keep it from being condescening in nature. That way, you not only show that you take the other's point of view seriously, but automatically avoid most of the offending qualities of your texts. At the point where you are actually attacking the points and not the person, as Phoenix aptly says it, you will actually be parttaking in discussion that can lead somewhere.


Washu: Just a side note.
I still can't understand why single-mindedness is now suddenly used as a derogative statement, and associated with rudeness. Single-mindedness is nothing but the effect of having a mind strongly set on something. (next time, follow the link to the common dictionary )
Whether it is on belief, disbelief, truth or untruth, single-mindedness is nothing but not being in two minds about something. The latter is equally not inherently a good or a bad thing. I am 'in two minds' about the metafysical, the spiritual and to what 'the truth' is. You are clearly not, and have a strong conviction of having filtered out the untruth, and found (the) truth. That is single-mindedness, and it is only a bad thing if you consider it to be for your own reasons.

I am single-minded to the truth, but I can't ignore the un-truth. I can't pretend it is not there. I presented the facts in Mr. Ignoramus, these are all true. My point being, is why should we keep trusting the general scientific community, when they have made some very stupid mistakes? I can't say that for the entire community, but my question is why isn't more of the scientific community exploring the other side? Intelligent Design has everything to do with science, not with religion. Inspired by it? Yes! Look at its arguments; it doesn't violate any scientific laws, unlike evolution. Evolution claims that everything came from nothing, that statement itself is scientifically inaccurate. Look at the law of causality; it contradicts evolution's basic principles. So why do we promote it? Why do we teach it? It should be thrown in the garbage. It was a good attempt by Darwin, it was a good speculation, but it?s time to move on, even if it is to ID. So why are we not? I get suspicious. And as I do more research my suspicions become fact.