games keeper
Elite
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looks like katrina showed the world how poor the VS actually is.
they can sent for billions of dollars soldiers to iraq , but they can't do a simple evacuation of there own people ?
thats what people actually mean when they say
"solve your own problems first before you try to solve those of another "
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Woodsman
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Congratulations Gameskeeper you once again have no idea what your talking about. First off the country is called the US not VS. Secondly the vast majority of the population of New Orleans was evacuated the people who remained simply failed to heed clear and frequent warnings and nothing save the declaration of martial law could have moved them. Third everything that can be done is being done its not as if thousands of troops can be mobilized and supplies for 100,000 people can be gathered in the blink of an eye. Last of all it the US could afford to rebuild your little country after the Germans brought it to its bony European knees so ignorant teenagers like you could hope on line and tell us how much we suck we can damn well deal with this.
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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even fidel castro has donated money to the US.
together with Iran.
and sorry to say , but those who stayed behind are actually those who need themost help , the poorest of new orleans.
if bush would have put his war money into those people instead of the war, he could have saved 10000 of lives.
I feel sorry for you if you cant see that .
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Woodsman
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even fidel castro has donated money to the US.
together with Iran.
and sorry to say , but those who stayed behind are actually those who need themost help , the poorest of new orleans.
if bush would have put his war money into those people instead of the war, he could have saved 10000 of lives.
I feel sorry for you if you cant see that . You don't know the financial state of the people who stayed behind in New Orleans because not just one kind of person chose to stay behind. Even if they were all poor do you care to explain to me how that would make them more likely to not mind being killed in a massive flood and why exactly they weren't able to leave? Despite the war in Iraq the government has already passed 10 billion dollars in aid so i don't see how the cost of the war has effected new Orleans. No amount of money could have saved those people because NO AMOUNT OF MONEY CAN STOP HURICANES!!! . I feel sorry for you because you cant see anything with your head so far up your ass. Read a newspaper before you run your mouth for christ sake. |
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
 
Posts: 1011
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I could be snide and point out that we CAN actually deal with a hurricane. What are you going to do if that kind of weather runs through your home country games? Go running to the UN for help?
Furthermore, last I checked, the hurricane occurred AFTER troops were deployed elsewhere.
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-05, 18:37 by Angst »
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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What are you going to do if that kind of weather runs through your home country games? 1) are houses are build of stone and will be able to handle those kind of things . 2) the waterproblem , we already had that in the 1950 I think ( tab help me out pls) and we Builded the Deltaworks. ( wich STILL do a great job ) Furthermore, last I checked, the hurricane occurred AFTER troops were deployed elsewhere. you should think into the future that such things CAN happen. and not deploy those troops elsewhere. again , first solve your own problems , then go fix sombody else his problems. and saying you can handle the problem is not what I would call it , we are almost a week further now and still there are people trapped there. |
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
Posts: 1011
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My point is that you're criticizing the US Federal Government for sending troops to Iraq well before hurricane Katrina formed. It is the STATE government that is responsible for ensuring the safety of it's citizens in light of potential natural disaster. New Orleans is below sea-level, and is something that the local government should have taken into account well before this happened. It has nothing to do with troop deployment. Hell, the US has been covering the military end of the UN for YEARS and noone's criticized us or bitched about it until recently. Which brings us to the problem of being the US. If we do nothing, you bitch, if we do something, you bitch. **** off, I'm tired of having to defend the actions of a country I don't always agree with to people who live, effectively, in a welfare-state. edit: oh yeah, 1) are houses are build of stone and will be able to handle those kind of things .
2) the waterproblem , we already had that in the 1950 I think ( tab help me out pls)
and we Builded the Deltaworks. ( wich STILL do a great job ) 1 - Stone buildings break rather easily when entirely submerged. 2 - Hurricanes fly, and New Orleans is land-locked. The Deltaworks don't apply in this scenario. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-05, 20:30 by Angst »
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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euhm , yes they do , our dams are wel maintained , because there is money for it . and they will make shure that water wont get into the city laying 20 feet under sea level . they werent able to leave because they didnt know about the huricane. welfare-state part of the definition of a welfare state is that the rich help come up for the poor. so that the all the people have an average amount of money. tis last part is not really happening in the US , the barrier between the richest and the poorest people only became bigger the last few years. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-05, 21:10 by games keeper »
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Woodsman
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tis last part is not really happening in the US , the barrier between the richest and the poorest people only became bigger the last few years. and how the hell would you know that? have you been anywhere near the states? |
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scalliano
Elite
Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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... its not as if thousands of troops can be mobilized and supplies for 100,000 people can be gathered in the blink of an eye... Granted, but it shouldn't have taken FIVE DAYS. Not to mention that a disaster such as this doesn't seem to be significant enough to warrant your President cancelling his holiday. The more time that passes, the worse the situation will become. Law and order has completely broken down - looting, violence and other crime is widespread, and only today I read about the police opening fire on an armed gang. I for one have no doubt that the US could sort this mess out, but why was the government so slow off the mark? I've heard many people claim racism on the part of the government, and while I'm not ready to be drawn on that myself, Condleeza Rice attending a press conference isn't about to swing me. I quote a victim of the floods I heard on the news on Friday: "Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. You know what? It's too doggone late!" |
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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They were slow on their reaction, and that was really bad not only for the survivors, but to Bush's image. He should have cancelled his vacations in the day that Katrina passed.
I don't think that Racism had any kind of relation to the Goverment's slow reaction. The USA is a free country that has ended their racial problems decades ago.
The "Water-Barriers" in New Orleans were in a really bad shape, otherwise they would have retained the water longer. This was a failure of the City Hall, that clearly didn't pay enough attention to their only defense against the surrounding waters.
If the USA hadn't invested money in these past wars, the World would be a worser place to live than it is. Besides, the USA has enough money and human resources to support BOTH problems.
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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euhm actually your dept is A LOT bigger then that of europe.
and woods, i have an uncle in the USA who lives there for 15 years.
oher people who live in america say the same when they come back.
its glitter on the outside, but actually your a third world country
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Moshman
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It is sporked up down there. Total anarchy down there. There are people shooting at helicopters and resue crews. Damn people act like a bunch of sporking monkeys, robbing each other, looting, "Because we're opressed by the 'white' man." Quote on quote. National guardmen killed 5 people for shooting at helicopers. sporking homies. The more and more shit like this happens, the tighter and tigher I sweeze my bible. To be honest, most of them people don't need a loaf of bread, they need the Word.
[edit] er... can someone say... extreme censorship? [/edit]
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-06, 00:37 by Little Washu »
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Phoenix
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Sooner or later, I knew this would happen. "It's Bush's fault." That's all I hear anymore. A freaking tsunami hits Indonesia, and "It's Bush's fault." Think I'm wrong? There are people who honestly believe the US was testing some underwater tectonic weapon and caused the tidal waves. Oh yes, and then there's people who blame Bush for not signing Kyoto. The ignorance of man is only continuing to show itself in all of this. Let's get a few facts straight.
1) No piece of paper can stop a hurricane.
2) CO2 levels were higher in the time of the dinosaurs, and life flourished then, but of course there was more vegitation. Maybe if you'd plant more TREES instead of BULLDOZING them for dead concrete wastelands you'd see a reduction in CO2 levels and air pollution overall.
3) The sun heats the earth. The sun has been growing hotter and brighter for the last 100 years. There's your freaking global warming.
4) Bush is not to blame for the fallout from the hurricane, the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governer of Louisiana ARE.
5) What !@#!@# good is the blame game? People are suffering, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Play the blame game AFTER the suffering is done!
Games, it's really simple. The Federal Government's power is limited by the US Constitution. The Feds don't step in unless it gets REALLY bad. In this case the responsibility lied square on the Mayor and Governer, since they are the local officials directly charged with managing this territory. The most blatant problem with New Orleans is the local government is corrupt, and has been for over 100 years or more. The mayor, as most big city mayors tend to be, is completely incompetent and did not take the storm seriously. It was coming in as a category 5 hurricane, with sustained winds of 175 MPH. If it had not veered to the right and weakened before making landfall, there would be NO survivors at all. Why? The levies (water retaining walls) were built only to withstand a category 3 storm. This sort of gamble was a direct result of the mayor and local officials not wanting to spend the money because they were too busy using it to grease their own palms when the levies were built. I'm not going to go into a capitalism vs socialism debate regarding the allocation of funds, the plain fact is that corruption and stupidity is what resulted in the walls breaking, along with the arrogance of man that produces the attitude that "it won't happen to me."
So you look at New Orleans, which is below sea level, and a foolish place to have built in the first place. This was bound to happen sooner or later. A lake on one side, the sea on another, and as I expected would happen the city is now a concrete fishbowl because the sea ran up into the lake and overflowed it, courtesy of the hurricane. As for the disaster recovery, consider the wisdom of the Mayor's instructions to send all these people into a confined area. The Superdome, if it had power and plumbing, would have been fine to house that many people. However, what the Mayor did not count on was the complete LOSS of power and water, which resulted in the building becoming a deathtrap. Again, we see the complete ignorance of the power of such a storm, and the fact that he believed it would be "much ado about nothing" and "business as usual" after the storm passed. That's why he did not order the use of busses to evacuate these people prior to the storm, he did not want to exert the effort nor the expense. Just shove them into a box, let the storm pass, and put them back in their hovels once it's over.
The Federal effort, right now, is what IS working. It's National Guard troops and helicopters that are putting things in order. Why? 200 New Orleans cops quit. 2 committed suicide. Most are unable to get to the affected areas because they have no transport over the water. Others were completely unprepared to deal with this sort of thing. This is not some minor incident, this is akin to a war zone, and civilian police forces are NOT equipped to handle this sort of scenario, physically or mentally. Imagine Rwanda, or Bosnia for a second. I know professional soldiers, the best of the best, who still are psychologically scarred from being there. I think you have no idea what this kind of disaster does to a person's mind, and until you've been in one you have absolutely NO right to armchair the situation like this. Some people have gone completely insane over what they've seen. Others, the evil kind, have used this as an excuse to be "king warlord" for a day because they can. Since the whole city is underwater, and the local police can't GET anywhere into the city to stop these people, they've been running amok. Combine that with the panic atmosphere of the people in the Superdome, after being stuck in a filth-ridden cage after a week, and you have chaos.
The plain truth is man underestimates nature all the time, and pays for it every so often. People were gambling at casinos while the storm was hitting. One even told a Fox news anchor it was "none of your sporking business" what he was doing when asked about it. I'll tell you what I see, it's bullshit politics and the desire to see it "stuck to the US for a change" that's spawning attitudes like yours, Games Keeper. You can criticize and gloat all you want, but it makes me sick when I, who despise mankind as a whole, have more sympathy for the suffering of the people than you do. All you're wanting to do is sit on your soapbox and tear down Bush and the US Government over Iraq. You use disaster as an opportunity - just like the looters and murderers. That's sickening and shameful. Instead of railing, show some of that supposed European gentileness and do something constructive. You think the US can't handle it? Then make a freaking donation to the Red Cross and actually do something that HELPS. Otherwise STFU. I'm tired of politics overshadowing suffering. The US sent it's troops to help the people hurting through the tsunami, if you forgot. The US sends BILLIONS of dollars of foreign aid money overseas every year and gets no thanks for it whatsoever, so stop acting as if the US does nothing but wage war. These are people, just like you, most of them just trying to live their lives who got blindsided by this. Most of those who didn't leave were given bad advice and are now left with the aftermath. They have nothing. Most of them have lost family members. They are in utter despair, and need help. Period. Either show some bloody compassion and do something to help, or go the hell away. I'm fed up with your attitude.
Oh, and one last thing. Don't ever, ever think it can't happen to you. I guarantee you disaster can and will find those who think they are immune to it.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Makou
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Oh, and one last thing. Don't ever, ever think it can't happen to you. I guarantee you disaster can and will find those who think they are immune to it. Not much to say, other than this: Phoenix is absolutely right on this note. Just one example, most people think the state of New York is largely safe from most natural disasters, aside from the occasional tornado. Guess what? Hurricanes have come right up the New York City area's backside in the past, and eventually, it will happen again. When nature wants to do something, it doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what you do. Run all of the simulations you want. Take all of the precautions you think are necessary. She will find a way. |
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If you see a "Rona Altana" out there on the internet somewhere, that's probably me
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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Games, it's really simple. The Federal Government's power is limited by the US Constitution. The Feds don't step in unless it gets REALLY bad. In this case the responsibility lied square on the Mayor and Governer, since they are the local officials directly charged with managing this territory. You people keep forgetting that the USA is not constituted by states. They are constituted by countries, literally! Most states are bigger than any country in Europe. The goverment had a slow reaction because it was relying on the state's local goverment. But since that local goverment failed on their duties, the USA goverment had to react by themselves, after a period of time that was enough to the local goverment react. Wich they DID. So this is NOT Bush's fault people, and right now that really doesn't matter as Phoenix said. What matters is to solve this situation, then we can start questioning "How did this happened? Who's fault is this?". |
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l4mby
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euhm actually your dept is A LOT bigger then that of europe. That's b/c we've been the world's penny bank for YEARS. W/o the USes money, a lot of these countries would be worse off than what they already are. Say what you want, but a lot of that debt is b/c we give it to other countries to help them. I'm sorry that our country feels the need to help its fellow men. Angst is right. Ppl bitch at the US no matter what it does. I'm w/ him as well on not agreeing w/ it all the time, but that's life. Nothing is going to be perfect. W/ regards to that in retrospect, they're doing what they can. It's not a matter of not helping our own ppl. It's a matter of helping ALL ppl. I agree w/ pho on everything he said as well. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-06, 13:58 by l4mby »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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There is ofcourse the question of whether something is correct because it is by law or by defined construct so, or withing a bigger picture. Maybe the way in which the dealings with the situation were inadequate should throw up some questions if that law and/or construct is correct. That would seem to me to be both more interesting and harder to answer than the simple question whether it is 'by law' incorrect to make accusations.
Probably this will be dismissed as 'lefty whining', just like Chomsky's comments have been in the past, or maybe dropped as off-topic, but hey, it's interesting and worth giving the post a shot.
I'm not going to touch GK's post with a 10' pole obviously, and I can only laugh in the face of the ridiculousness of saying "they had it comin', God punished justly" and other delicious inanities.
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-06, 14:03 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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A person that says "they had it coming" is a complete moron and should be arrested immediatly.
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