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Phoenix
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BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - Thousands of Muslims rampaged Sunday in Beirut, setting fire to the Danish Embassy, burning Danish flags and lobbing stones at a Maronite Catholic church as violent protests over caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad spread from neighboring Syria....
...In the Afghan city of Mihtarlam, some 3,000 demonstrators burned a Danish flag and demanded that the editors at the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten be prosecuted for blasphemy, Gov. Sher Mohammed Safi said. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060205/D.../D8FJ31PG0.htmlSo someone exercises their freedom of speech, and the press, halfway across the world, and this is the result. If anyone wonders why nothing bad gets said about Islam in the news this is why. People in governments and media are scared of this sort of thing, and it would appear that this fear is quite justified. The demand for prosecution for blasphemy really got my attention, since as far as I know Danish law has no provision for such a thing. I suppose to Safi it's unthinkable to not have a law forbidding the insult of Mohammad, which illustrates the great divide between Islamic and Western thinking - Muslims expect theocratic laws.
So the result is the world muzzles itself because, in truth, it's scared of Islam but won't admit to it. Since western, "open" societies are willing to muzzle themselves to not offend the Muslims for fear of reprisal, guess what? Islam dictates your government policy, without a single vote cast, lobby made, or law passed. That should be a sobering thought. This is a wake-up call. When you have the ACLU and Leftists fuming about the Christian heritage of Western society and trying to remove any trace of a religion whose founder willingly went to his death for the salvation of mankind, you have a religion founded by a warlord that explodes at any mild criticism of its founder that everyone in power is turning a blind eye toward. You jail the peacemaker because he's dangerous, and ignore the guy with the big sword in his hand whose about to cut your head off. A free and open society cannot exist if it is not honest with itself, and increasingly Western societies are becoming willingly subservient to the dictates of Islam, whether their populace wants it or not.
Today it's a torched embassy, tomorrow it could be torched cities. Personally I'm glad this little episode happened because it gets the truth on the table, though I pray for those who have been hurt in the process. |
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shambler
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Agreed. There's a storm coming in.  |
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Lopson
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Still Going In Circles
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- BOUHOUHOUH! The Danish made a caricatures in which our Fuher Ala enters! LET'S KILL ALL EUROPE!
The problem is those damned radicals, who can't even understand that a God seeks the hapiness of His followers, unless KILLING PEOPLE AND DYING SAYING "Our God = l33t" MAKES THEM HAPPY! How foolish they are. It's like they are still after the Philosofer's Stone through Alchemy (the radicals, that is).
Then there's the other extreme, where homosexual people get married, and where being coward is cool and gives loads of money.
Well, this is a funny world, do you not agree?
A World where God's love is mistaken by hate... a world where human sanity is no longer sane.
I know this might seem as over-reaction, but it ain't.
The only option the civilized world has is to isolate the whole middle-east. Why are we so damn lazy?
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« Last Edit: 2006-02-06, 22:54 by [KruzadeR] »
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Phoenix
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Great link there Tab. While I disagree with tailen's statement about the religious in America making all policy (see ACLU vs Ten Commandments, banning private prayer in school, etc), that's another debate entirely, he did say one thing on there that summed this up quite well:
These people are just looking for something to get upset about and they want to create conflict. Isn't that usually how it works? I am not surprised either that they used fakes in order to stir people up. Unfortunately it worked, and the world is trembling in fear over what amounts to a blatant lie propagated by a couple of clerics who wanted to stir up trouble. Well, how many people have or will be harmed from their actions, including other Muslims should this spill over into suicide bombings and other acts that are trademark of the Jihadist mindset? But then again, I guess they don't care about their own people anyway if they're willing to brainwash them into strapping explosives to their children, or risking nuclear retaliation in the form of the "Samson Option"* as in the case of Iran in order to speed the return of their supposed Messiah... I often hear (and agree with) the statement that not all Muslims should be condemned because of the actions of the radicals. That would be like condeming all Christians for the Inquisition and Crusades (which some people do, I've argued with some of them). The problem is that the moderates very rarely are the ones that make policy. Radicals and hardliners of one sort or another are the kind that change the world, for better or for worse. The dangerous kind are not a problem when people see them as radicals and shut them out. They become a problem when people think they are right and are willing to follow them and act in their behalf. They become a threat when the people charged with protecting against these kinds of dangers bury their heads up their asses and pretend the problem isn't real. This isn't a left or right, Republican or Democrat issue, this is a growing problem of the entire world living in denial, and those who have the courage to speak out about it are being continually silenced. If the Islamic world continues on a Jihadist march, we don't need Neville Chamberlains at the helm. We need people with backbone, and those seem to be in short supply.[/color] * The Samson Option is an Israeli policy that if anyone attempts a nuclear strike on them, they will strike back with full force even if their own country is destroyed in the process. See the story of Samson and Deliliah where Samsom collapsed the pillars he was chained to to bring the house down on the Philistines, killing them but also taking himself in the process. The Samson Option is basically a mutually assured destruction policy.
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shambler
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Come the moment, come the man.
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games keeper
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what I find funny is if yu would make a carton about jesus.
nobdy will complain
make a cartoon out boedha , and half the boedhist monks will start praying for peace or something.
make a cartoon about mohammed, and the whole muslim world starts rioting.
my conclusion, Islam is a violent religion.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Games, your 'deductive reasoning' right there is seriously flawed in many ways. I will not even begin to try and show you why, I'm sure someone else will take your post seriously enough for that, but not me. I'm just the guy who's going 'tisk tisk tisk' right now - and with only a few seconds of thought about the many tidbits of knowledge about history and actuality that can't possibly all have escaped your observation, you'd probably do the same.
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Make a cartoon about Jesus, and I will most certainly complain. I won't go firebombing embassies over it though.
Islam can be a violent religion, however Christianity, Buddhism, and any religion can be violent if the followers are violent people. See, it's all in how you interpret what you hear and read. If you read in the Koran that infidels must be killed, and go kill infidels, that makes you violent. If you go out and torture and kill non-Christians, even though Jesus said "turn the other cheek", that makes you violent. Beliefs aren't the concern here, actions are.
Violent people will choose to be violent and use whatever they want to justify it. A person who detests violence can defy it even if the dominant religion in the area demands it. My point in posting this wasn't to make a blanket accusation against all Muslims, but to point out the fact that the civilized world is led by cowards who won't confront the violent among them.
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« Last Edit: 2006-02-10, 16:49 by Phoenix »
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Moshman
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You want to know something about Islam. It commands in the Korran that all Muslims shall kill the 'infedels'. This is in black and white, no interpretations, no questions asked. Kill all non-beleivers. The Chirstian religion says to love non-beleivers and reach out to them. Islam is an evil religion in my opinion, don't argue with me unless you have done some in depth study on Islam like I have. And don't give me this "evil to your religion" bullshit either, because killing non-beleivers and beating your wife, is evil, plain as day. You don't need a Bible to know this.
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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Just testing  Pho: I agree with your point about actions rather than beliefs. All you need to do is look at, say, the Spanish Inquisition, Wahabism, Naziism, etc to know that violent tendencies are not restricted to one faith. Washu: I'm not in a position to dispute your post, but the Old Testament has its moments too, particularly regarding the treatment of women, but I digress. As a free-thinker, IMO it takes good people to do good things, and evil people to do evil things, but for good people to do evil things, it takes religion. Judge not lest ye be judged. BTW Freedom of speech in the UK took a severe kick in the balls today as a bill was passed in the Commons outlawing the "glorification of terrorism" and some of the placards held by protesters over the cartoons were used as an example. However, as good as this may sound on paper, the problem is that the exact definition of "glorification of terrorism" is difficult to pin down. Many (including myself) fear that, if it is made law, it may be used as a weapon to suppress legitimate criticism of things such as foreign policy et al. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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for good people to do evil things, it takes religion. Religion can do this, sure, but any kind of hard-line thinking can. Look at Germany prior to WWII. Were all Germans bad people? No, but how many of the good ones wanted to see their country strong, how many had to follow orders, how many are now ashamed of their country's past, so ashamed in fact that it is forbidden to display any Nazi symbol, own any Nazi-related articles, or walk the "goose step"? It did not take religion there, but the Nazis were zealots all the same. Look at the USSR, look at all the deaths that Communism caused, and the enslavement of the Eastern Bloc nations in Europe. Look at Communist China... need I go on? Man does not need religion necessarily to make good people do bad things. Pressure, propaganda, the momentum behind a "cause".. all of that is enough. The mistake is pinning it on only religion and remaining blind to the other causes, which is what the secular world (especially the anti-religious fascists) tries to do.
Washu: I know what the Koran says, and yes you are correct. I don't condemn all Muslims because not all Muslims adhere to that portion of the Koran, but the potential is there if they should feel pressured by their leaders, like in the case of the Taliban (It is your duty to Allah or else you are not a true Muslim, and therefore must be executed) or if they should be swayed by the "mob" mentality (since everyone else is doing it, I'll do it too).
Scal: The problem with Islamic extremism is nobody's fighting for freedom. Islamo-fascists detest freedom by their very nature. They wish to install a hardline Islamic theocracy that rules the entire world with an iron fist, and they're willing to fight for centuries to do it. Imagine someone like Al Sadr or Ayatollah Khomeini (sp?) dictating policy to the whole world, and Taliban-like goons enforcing it at the end of an AK-47. They would make the Nazi Gestapo look like the local Boyscout troop. Fighting for that kind of world is not being a freedom fighter. Fighting to prevent that kind of world is.
Back during the dark ages, when the bible was read and understood by few, and people with bad motives carried out horrible acts, using religious authority as a club, yes, atrocities were committed in the name of God. The same goes with the forced conversions of the American Indians. We Christians do not whitewash our past and try to cover up what happened. We also should not be condemned for the mistakes of those who have done so, nor do we need to be constantly reminded of it any time we go to bring attention to attrocities being committed today by other people. What you don't see reported is in the case of disasters like Sumatra, and Katrina, most of the aid that actually reaches the people after the news media runs off after the next big political scandal and the people in need are forgotten about is delivered by Christian charities. This aid is delivered to people of any faith, political ideology, race, what have you. I don't see too many people in the Islamic world reaching out to help Christians. How many Islamic charities funnel money to terrorists? Look at the actual dollars sent to the Palestinians for aid. Most of it comes from the West (America) and the rest from taxes levied by Israel on its own people. Yes, you heard me, Israel sends money to the same people who are trying to kill them. Why? Because the Islamists won't let the Palestinians out of their little box and into either Egypt or Jordan, they just want Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the like to wage war behind the human shields that the Palestinian refugees have been reduced to. If the Arabs gave a damn they would let them settle anywhere they wanted, but they're forced into squabbling with Israel, then told it's exclusively the Jews' fault. I'm not absolving Israel of any wrongs it may have done, but it's kind of hard to feel sympathetic toward the surrounding Arab peoples when they are complicit in this situation. They use Palestine as a wedge with which to try to squeaze Israel out of existence.
This religion of Islam is dangerous, as Washu says. Any religion that tells people it is their duty to their god to kill unbelievers who do not convert (and I have read this in the Koran the same as Washu) is dangerous. Yes, the Old testament has spots where the Lord told the Israelites to go forth and conquer a spor here, and there, and take down certain towns. Read it in context, and you will see God was giving them power to occupy the land that He promised them. After they had it, they stopped. When they disobeyed, and took spoil against His command, they lost battles. It's not the same situation as today, and it's also in the past. Orthodox Jews aren't out to conquer the world militarily if you notice. As for Christians, Jesus never commanded anyone to kill anyone. He said if a man strikes you on the cheek in anger, to turn to him the other cheek. He did not say to not defend yourself at all, as he commanded his Apostles to buy swords before he was taken in Gethsemene, but there's a stark contrast between a religion that has a God who is willing to live as a lowly mortal, suffer, and die to save his fallen creatures from their own evils, and one who has a warlord for its greatest prophet who commands his followers to conquer, and kill, and forcibly convert everyone everywhere. The problem is nobody except a few very gutsy people are willing to criticize Islam publicly. People make fun of Christians and Jews all the time. Why? We don't cut your head off for having an opinion.
Even now people who were trying to tell the truth and warn of the dangers of Islam are being silenced even within the Christian community. A fellow by the name of Hal Lindsey, a minister with an excellent understanding of bible prophecy, used to run a program on TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network). Well, his show was pulled by Mr. Crouch, who owns the network, this last December. This was after having been partnered since the 1970's. After getting a flood of letters, he was going to let Hal back on, with the condition that his content be "subject to review and approval". In other words, censored by the network to not offend the Muslims. Hal would not agree to being censored so he pulled his show himself and had to go out looking for other networks to host his program. Even people in the Christian community, and in this case, the owners of the largest Christian broadcast network, are cowering before the Islamists. Why? Why do those charged with telling the truth cringe? Why do governments cower? I would say that it seems terrorism is working and working damned effectively. This is exactly what they want people to do, and as long as the world continues to knuckle under to Islamic pressure the peril grows.
Iran is now enriching uranium again. Even France is concerned they are seeking nuclear weapons. Anyone with a brain knows they want them, and with Russia's help, they will soon have them. This is going to force Israel and/or the US into a military confrontation with Iran, since doing nothing means Iran will deploy them and use them. The UN won't do anything, the same as it wouldn't do anything with Iraq. Sanctions, treaties - words will accomplish nothing. When this military conflict happens - not if, but when - the repercussions will be felt around the whole world. The bible speaks of the battle of Armageddon happening on the plains in the valley of Megido, outside Jerusalem. Iran has publicly stated and its president sworn to erase Israel from Existence. Psalm 83 states: "They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from [being] a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance." According to our understanding of prophecy, this battle will involve a Muslim confederation, Russia, and the "Kings of the East" - Korea, China, etc, and China has been building up its nuclear and military arsenal as well, even their missile boats have been seen in public access satelite photos. If the Western world gets bogged down with fighting in the middle east with Iran, with an already stretched US military and a powerless UN, what do you think hardline commies like China will do? They'll side with whoever suits them, and I can tell you right now it won't be the United States. I am seeing things playing out exactly as predicted, not because of some divine intervention forcing events, but simply because there are no longer enough people of courage in the West who are willing to change the course of events. If the people can't speak out, and the leaders can't act, who will stop it?
BTW, I find that cartoon amusing, actually.  |
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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Like I said, just testing  My reference to freedom fighters wasn't referring to Islam specifically, but to the threat to civil liberty as a whole posed by the bill. In a nutshell, getting rid of Abu Hamza is one thing, but there is fear that the government may use the bill as a means of getting rid of those it doesn't like. Meanwhile, back at the topic ... One thing I will say is that If Israel and Iran do get it on, then there is absolutley NO doubt in my mind that the US and indeed Britain would intervene, probably followed soon after by Russia. Cue nuclear strikes, the aforementioned Samson policy and, of course, more suicide-bombings in the West. WWIII basically. The problem is that a pre-emptive strike would most likely cause even MORE trouble in the long run. One way or another, it's the poor bastard on the street who will bear the brunt. What to do, what to do ... |
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Lopson
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Still Going In Circles
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Phoenix
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DUESSELDORF, Germany (Reuters) - A German court on Thursday convicted a businessman of insulting Islam http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/...on_germany_dc_2So in the US, you can display crucifixes in jars of urine and defecate on various Christian religious articles and call it "art", but in Germany you can be convicted of insulting Islam by making what amounts to a political statement. It's nice to see that at least some religion in the world is held to a degree of respect, however I might also point out that people of that same religion are, in Iraq, torching each others' mosques right now. Then again, it's always easier to make fun of and ridicule people who denounce violence and seek peace. It takes some guts to stand up to a bully, and the world has shown it has no backbone when it comes to certain kinds of bullies.
Now concerning Iraq, as I know Games Keeper will probably chime in with some remark about [insert Leftist opposition reason here], I will say that the longer the US operation continues in Iraq, the more doomed it's beginning to look because of one critical flaw. No, it wasn't the premise for going to war I'm talking about, nor was it anything operation-wise during the initial invasion. I think it was a complete lack of understanding of Islam, and the Islamic mind by both the politicians and military commanders that is to blame for what's going on now. This is not Eastern Europe, which welcomed western democracy with open arms. Do I think people in the middle east are equally deserving of democracy? Yes - if they choose to accept it, which is the question. Islam is not a religion well known for encouraging free thinking, nor tolerance. If they don't choose to accept freedom, well, I certainly hope the security forces get a lid on this situation, and prevent it from becoming more than just a few blown up mosques or it's going to get very ugly very quick - especially if there are military strikes against Iran in the forseeable future. Seeing the military commanders on TV denying everything doesn't exactly imbue one with confidence. Whoever planned this wants a civil war in Iraq, and clearly they knew what they were doing, as well as how the people would react. It also shows how low they will sink to achieve their goals. |
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Woodsman
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wait! does this mean germany is not the vangard of freedom and reasonable civilization? oh god why didnt i know till now?! if only there had been some signs... maybe 2 signs.
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games keeper
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I will say that the longer the US operation continues in Iraq, the more doomed it's beginning to look because of one critical flaw. No, it wasn't the premise for going to war I'm talking about, nor was it anything operation-wise during the initial invasion. I think it was a complete lack of understanding of Islam, and the Islamic mind by both the politicians and military commanders that is to blame for what's going on now. This is not Eastern Europe, which welcomed western democracy with open arms. Do I think people in the middle east are equally deserving of democracy? Yes - if they choose to accept it, which is the question. Islam is not a religion well known for encouraging free thinking, nor tolerance. If they don't choose to accept freedom, well, I certainly hope the security forces get a lid on this situation, and prevent it from becoming more than just a few blown up mosques or it's going to get very ugly very quick - especially if there are military strikes against Iran in the forseeable future. Seeing the military commanders on TV denying everything doesn't exactly imbue one with confidence. Whoever planned this wants a civil war in Iraq, and clearly they knew what they were doing, as well as how the people would react. It also shows how low they will sink to achieve their goals. no comment ( leftish enough ? ) btw , I'm actually pretty right minded I just try to see things from another point of view |
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Phoenix
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I just figured I'd pre-emptively stereotype you this time around Games.
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