It seems that everyone has forgotten that our government, elected officials and all such people/groups are supposed to SERVE the citizens that placed them in power.

not to mention I personally think that the constitution should be rewritten, lets face it, there has been more changes in the past 200 years than in the rest of the past two milennia.

KruzadeR.. you are awesome. That last post was the best thing I've read in a LONG time (on the internet anyway). Sarcasm used perfectly and in the same way I use it myself.. and the fact that I agree makes it even better. <3


...now if it's not sarcastic, then uhhh... delete this post and replace it with KruzadeR's, adding a nonexistant sarcasm tag in all the right places.

That's a nice thought you got there. Nice altruistic line of thinking.

I do not do what I think is right. I do not know what is right. I do not profess to know better than anyone around me what is right. I do not profess to care about it more or less than anyone else.

I do not believe anyone when they say they know anything regarding theology, metafysics (or in most cases, even regarding politics). If anything, I will not fall into their 'heap of bullshit'.
I am not afraid of being called anything, nor am I afraid of admitting my honest ignorance. I do not care if one thinks me 'weak' or 'too open-minded' by this problematic and doubtlessly pointless stance.

"Truth" is a word and I am not afraid to admit I have not the faintest idea what this word means, how its meaning has changed throughout the ages and what we can do with it or indeed what it does to us. The same goes for "knowledge". (For that matter, why would a rock, ever exposed to erosion, be seen as solid?) I am not afraid to call anyone who thinks they do know what meaning these words have, and know it with certainty, foolish. Likewise for those who think it is they who use the words, and that it is in no means the other way around. I call them foolish because of my views on this matter, and I do not pretend that I have knowledge beyond these convictions to support I call them so.

I do not hold this position for any pragmatical reason, because I am not convinced that the use of anything is all important. I do not believe we can or should hang on to any specific tradition, standards or morals. I do not believe I have a right to live, nor a plight to give up or keep my life for anything. I do not believe the convictions of others, but will never pretend to be able to make decisions about these matters for them. I do, partly therefore, see the practical use of a social contract and the cultural value of tradition - but I do not pretend to know why either should convince anyone of anything.

(1) "You don't have to believe in God, he is real without you believing him."
(2) "God does not exist, it does not matter whether or not you believe in anything."

Both are pure speculation. Nothing is proved - and I believe nothing regarding this can be proved. I see no purpose in promoting either: preaching to the choir acquires nothing and no sane person will ever be swayed by an 'argument' like that.
God is dead. God is real. God is nothing. These are empty gestures, not relevant to anything in this thread, as far as I'm concerned. So, for me, it does nothing that anything is said to be given by God, fate, Allah or pure chance, when politics are discussed.

I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but those words weren't even part of the original pledge. They weren't added until the 1950s.

Besides that, I don't think God put anyone anywhere.. that shows a sign of manipulation which goes against his own concept of free will. He lets people do their own thing with their own thoughts.. if those thoughts are guided by his Word, then all the happier. He did tend to lash out in the Old Testament, and even still.. the people lived their own lives. He did seem to calm down a bit since then tho. (Or maybe he's still lashing out at times... Pompeii.. Hurricane Katrina.. never know).

Tabun: (about the existence/nonexistence of God)I agree. 100%

Tabun: I agree there also.

Tabun, check your PMs.



Now that this topic is totally derailed.....

I see your point, but you must understand, you submit to God, by submitting to authority.
I have a lot of crediability of this subject. I am a youth leader in my church's youth group. We did a series on submitting to authority. To quote the youth pastor's semon notes:

"Submission is not agreeing. When one agrees with the decision that he is called to submit to, he does not really have to submit in any way. By definition, submission is doing something one has been asked to do that he would not do if he had his own way. (2) Submission is not just outward obedience. It includes that, but also involves obedience from the heart. It is a wholehearted giving-up of one's own desires. (3) Submission is not conditional. We submit to authority, not because the one in authority deserves it, but because the authority comes from God; therefore, we are in reality submitting to God."

Fisrt Peter pointed his readers to the issue of authority. They were subjects of Rome, none of them in positions of power within the Empire. Most were employees of employers. Most suffered injustice at the hands of these authorities. Some persecution was movivated by greed and immorality; some was the result of their Christian faith.

When you're treated unfairly, it's hard to be godly. But such a time is a strategic opening for the gospel:

On Submitting to Authorities from 1 Peter Chapter 2 Vereses 13-17
 "Submit yourselves," the quoted text begins. This is a command, it's plural, applying to all.... no exceptions.

Why is this? "for the Lord's sake." The authorities are established by God: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities. for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities, that exist have been established by god." (Romans 13:4-5)

We are to submit to authority, not because the authority has earned our submission, but because the Lord directs us to do so. Out of love for our Lord, we serve.

We are directed to submit "to every authority instituted amoung men" (1 Peter 2:13). No exeptions are given. God's word is clear and practical: "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servents, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him. If you owe taxes, pay taxes: if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor; then honor." (Romans 13;6-7)

This is why it is important to submit and serve out authorites: "It is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men" (1 Peter 2:25)

We should expect "ignorant talk of foolish men." We will get rid of any more slander of our faith more by actions rather than words.

"In your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak malicously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." (1Peter 3:15-17)

"Live as free men," Peter encouraged people living under the great burden of Roman oppression. We can choose to live in freedom spirtually, even if we are not allowed to circumstantially, but "do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil." Liberty is not a license to rebel incessantly. We are saved so we can serve.

Peter's readers were by force of circumstance the servants of Rome and not of God. They could choose to serve God and not Rome, spirtually.

Suffer... For the will of God:
"It is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of god." (1 Peter 2:19-20) This is Peter speaking to Christian servents and slaves, whose authorities were repressive. We should expect unjust suffering. "Blessed are you, when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." (Matthew 5:11) Bear up under such suffering and persecution because you are  "conscious of God"  (1 Peter 2:19b)

If You are punished, be sure that your punishment is not deserved for wrongdoing. Rather, "if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." (1Peter 2:20b)  Such suffering must be endured, for Peter's readers could not end it. Any unjust suffering is seen and rewarded by the Father.

Jesus's suffering was unjust and innocent. Jesus entrusted himself to God's justice and judgement, as we can.

So our Lord asks nothing of us that he has not first done. He submitted to authority, unjust punishment, and a slave's tortured death. He lived in the power and character of God so fully that others glorified God because of him. (Read Matthew 27-54) The Lord wants us to do the same.

So what am I saying?
Our founding fathers, if they were such "god fearing men". Would of known what God damandeth, and would have followed through. Which is that is to submit to authority, which they did not. They started a war that costed thousands of lives, and look where the governement is leaning back to. Repression, because our founding fathers did not do things God's way. God does not bless people when they are disobediant. Even if they did not know this, ignorance is not an excuse. I am a realist. I read the Bible, is says plain as day to submit to your authorities. I obey. I am not perfect, I am human, but I am going to try my hardest to be despite the fact I never will be.  There is no interpretation needed here. It's pretty black and white: "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God" (Romans 13:1) I do this out of love for Him. It is not my duty to battle with the Devil, for I cannot do it alone. This is why we have a Bible, to use it as a tool, as a weapon. It is our sword according to the Bible. You must use every part of it. So Phoenix, if you want to battle demons and Satan, you will submit to authority, as God himself commandeth.

I know exactly how you feel. You must let your reason overcome your zeal. I make the mistake of not doing this often, and thats how I get negative reactions out of people like what just happened to me. I know you don't like to watch people suffer, it sadens me as well, but the Word says "to endure the suffering".

Your authority comes from the Almighty, and the Almighty says to submit to your authorities. In the days of Rome, there was more opression and tyranny, than the U.S. Government has, and the Chirstians at that time lived happy, spirit fulled lives, because they obeyed God, by submitting to authority. You can't deny God's will. I had to realize this when I debated this with my pastor for a while. Now I understand His will even more.

I will also take a back seat on this one... but will continue to read none-the-less.

Scalliano:  Governments in practice are all tyrannical to some degree.  I understand the nature of corruption, and how power and corruption go hand in hand.  I'm merely speaking of how the US government was founded, and upon what principles.  I am quite aware that it functions differently in practice.  If it functioned the way the founders intended, we would have no need of this topic.

Washu:  I understand your position, and why you feel compelled to say to me what you do.  I also do not doubt what you say about your experience and credibility.  I do not seek to undermine either.  However, I too have my own experience and credibility.  What you may not understand is my situation is rather unique as it applies to this discussion.  You see I do have authority myself, and I am bound in service by the authority that I hold.  It is not authority by or over men, nor under them;  it is apart from man.  I will not submit to the authority of men regardless of the principles of which you speak for reasons I am not at liberty to discuss.  I do respect those who hold authority, or rather I should say, I respect the position which they hold.  I do not have to respect the individuals if they be corrupt, nor the decisions they make if they be unjust.  I can and will oppose such.

Do not mistake what I say as promoting lawlessness among men.  I am, by my nature, a lawful creature and I respect law even when I disagree with it.  Maybe this is doing what you are asking of me anyway, I have been known to have heated disagreements over issues of semantics, but I digress...  I do believe that every citizen should obey the law within reason.  I saw within reason because there are times where laws are broken out of desperation, necessity, and quite frankly accident.  Many will say that ignorance of the law should not be an excuse, or that the law should be absolute, but mercy demands flexibility in the application of the law and of punishment.  Human laws are absurdly complex, and it is unrealistic to expect every citizen to understand every law on the books.  If it were so, there would be no need for lawyers.  Even the bible speaks of provision for those who do not have the law and who do not know it.  It certainly speaks of those who cannot keep it.  Our God is a forgiving God.  Now where the law conflicts with one's freedom to worship God, which it does in this situation (we're back on topic, yay!) then the individual has a duty to put God ahead of man.  Should this land become Muslim, and you forced to obey the laws of Islam, which would you choose, to obey the law of the land, or the law written in your heart?  What of lands where religion is forbidden?  That is a choice millions of Christians have to make around the world, risking death should they be caught.  Do not forget that the prophet Daniel defied the law of Babylon that forbade him from worshiping the Lord, yet the Lord sustained him in the den of lions and the fiery furnace.  It is up to the believer to discern when a law must be broken, and punishment risked, in order to worship God.  This woman being arrested simply for praying on a sidewalk is, to me, no different than what Daniel did, though the risk to her be much smaller of course.

Remember also that no man could keep the laws that God gave to the Israelites.  All have broken the law, and so therefore all are condemned by the law.  The laws of God exist to show man his transgressions.  God put mercy ahead of the law, and above it.  He knew nobody could keep his laws when He wrote them.  Salvation was in Christ fulfilling God's law and taking the place of the condemned.  If you intend to live under the law, you will die under the law.  You must also keep the entire law, from birth until death, without transgression to be called guiltless.  A lot of Christians love to quote from Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, failing to understand that the law was given to the Jew, and not the Gentile, and also that if one lives by the law one must keep the entire law without exception.  This includes all the sabbaths, all the feasts, all the fasts, all the animal sacrifices for atonement, all the rules about uncleanness, and so forth.  You cannot pick and choose if you're going to live by the law, or use the law to dictate to others what their behavior should be.  It is all, or nothing.  Christ only gave two commandments in the New Testament:  To love thy God with all thy heart, and to love thy neighbor as theyself.  People can't even do that, how can you expect someone to obey every law given to the Jews, or every common law in society?

Something else you are not grasping here is the concept of what government is and what it is for.  You speak of authority as being given by God to those in power.  Authority comes in many forms.  This country was founded on the principle that rights are given by God directly to the people, and that government should exist to secure those rights.  If God sets up and takes down powers at his will, then He also set up this land.  How he set up this land is His concern, but by what you said, that this land was founded in disobedience, you show you have missed one important thing.  Without America, the Nazis could not have been defeated, nor could Israel have risen from its ashes and become a nation again after having been scattered to the four corners of the Earth.  England would have lost the war, and it was England and America that provided the mechanism for the mass migration of Jews to the area of Palestine.  It was the holocaust that provided the impetus to leave Europe.  However, without America the holocaust against the Jews would have continued unabated, and would have spread througout Europe as a fire spreads through a storehouse of grain.  Yet, God said He would gather His people from all nations into their own land.  If America had not become a nation as it did, prophecy could not have been fulfilled, and God would have been made a liar since there would BE no nation of Israel today.  You KNOW that is impossible for God to lie, therefore this land of America, founded in an act of treason, was set up by God's will.  It may very well fall by God's will, who can say?  Perhaps He gave power and authority to those Founding Fathers.  Perhaps He used them to diminish the authority of the King of England.

There are times when governments and people with authority abuse their power.  In this case they are breaking the law themselves.  The corrupt have no authority from God, for all corruption and evil has only one master.  Is the devil not to be opposed?  Should man submit to the authority of Satan?  Should man submit to laws requiring him to sin?  God forbid!  There are many churches, many denominations that put obedience as a primary concern.  Obedience to God and to the law must be voluntary to have any meaning.  Coercing someone with force or guilt only breeds resentment and a rebellious heart.  Obedience based in love, a desire to do good, and a righteous heart reflect a godly nature.  Obedience based in love brings about peace.  You cannot force someone to love, it must come from within.  A person must be awakened to this, and only the Holy Spirit can bring about this awakening.  Perhaps this is something you have yet to learn, I do not know, but I do know that God allowed even his angels to rebel if they so chose.  He did not force their obedience, but those who remained loyal did so of their own volition.  They stayed because they love the Lord.

Where a lot of Christians make a terrible mistake is in second guessing God, or thinking they know what His will is.  Is He not inscrutible?  Are his ways not above ours?  Is he not the great Mystery of Mysteries?  It is arrogance to presume we know God's will and can dictate it to other believers, and non-believers alike concerning their individual lives.  God gave every living thing consciousness and free will, and part of that will includes discernment.  Is it not written that we are to discern, that we will judge even angels?  Why then do you not trust me to discern the Word of God myself and apply it to my own life?  You do not know what God intends for me anymore than I know what He intends for you.  You do not know what tasks He has given me in my life, or what authority, or what burdens.  I do not know what he has given to you, hence my asking you questions instead of making assumptions in my previous post.  Yes, I have suffered, and far greater than you know.  That is my burden to bear, and I will bear it so long as I am cursed to breathe the air on this earth, and so long as the Lord requires it of me.  I will not, however, lord over someone and tell them "You have to do this because it says X in the bible."  Rubbish!  I can tell people what I *think* they should do, but that's my opinion.  I can quote scripture from here to eternity, but it's still up to the individual to decide what to do with it, if anything.  Nobody has to do anything I say, nor do I have to do anything anyone else says.  I can choose to do what someone asks if I wish, but only if I wish.  People can choose to listen to me, or to not listen.  You can choose to think me dead wrong if you like, and you can choose to try to persuade me to think differently, as you have tried above.  You could also choose to see things my way, or at least understand that trying to change my mind with forceful words is like yelling at a forest and expecting it to burst into flames simply because you say it should.  You'd only be wasting your breath in both cases.  I can be persuaded with good points and flawless logic from time to time though, but even then I'm about as stubborn as they come.