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ConfusedUs
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Let's try to keep this thread from degenerating into a flame war. I've sent messages to anyone who is being overly dis-respectful, and copied those messages to the other moderators on the board.
But onto the real subject.
Uber, we have nothing against modding an existing game. We're a mod team ourselves, after all. However, there's a few things you need to know about modding.
a) Read your EULA (End Use Liscense Agreement) that you must click AGREE on when you install your games. They pretty much state what is and what isn't free use, and what you can and can not modify.
The legalese can be a bit hard to decipher, but what the EULAs say is this: You may modify any media (textures/maps/models) in our game, but you may NOT export said media into another game. What is made for q3 stays in q3.
b) I'd suggest you read up on what's called "Fox-ing". Several years ago a team of people, much like yourselves, decided to make an Aliens vs. Predator mod. Fox Interactive came down on them HARD. Fox requested everything from the mod's source code to the hardware used by the team to create what they had made so far to the real names and addresses of each team member. Fox threatened lawsuits and other such legal retaliation if its requests were not honored. This kind of heavy-handedness is what coined the term 'Fox-ing' or 'Foxxing'.
Id software and valve have not been nearly has hard on teams, but very well could be in the future.
c) We worked hard on our models and skins and textures. If you want to use our stuff, please ask first...it's all we ask.
d) Read lee's post again. That's the one above mine.
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LeeMon
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And I HIGHLY suggest you read this article--particularly the top of Page 2--before you even think of approaching us about what you think you know about copyright laws. http://www.3dactionplanet.com/features/q3d...ellchick/iplaw/Of particular note: Unfortunately, copyright law requires that game companies take action against anyone who uses their content inappropriately or they risk losing the right to take action in future cases, cases that could have a more serious effect on their intellectual property than a kid having some fun. The situation is known as "waiver"--by not taking action, the game company is in effect saying that they don't care what happens to their content and that anyone can do what they want with it.I've been studying and working with copyright law as part of my studies and eventually job for the past four years. Where is your experience coming from again? |
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Tekhead
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To be honest, "Custom-TFC" 's 'mods' look like nothing more than ripped models with skins that were ran through a Photoshop filter. It looks like a desperation for attention really... I could also swear that they've also ripped things from Jedi Knight II. It's a collection of other peoples' work.... how tragic that it gets praise of any kind.
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
 
Posts: 1011
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Noone here ever said the entirety of the skins and models on that page were ripped. And OoPpE is NOT the only individual who's done this. I can list off other offenders if you would like.
A recreation of a model or skin on another medium is valid IF credit is given to the original author. Ripping models and skins, then converting is NOT. That simple fact is what is causing the problem.
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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games keeper
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now now GK.... dont go flying off the handle. No flaming is needed
He removed them when asked, no hassle involved I didnt flame him ??? if you saw my flame him , he would ly there in ashes behind his computer . I just was faire with him . he could be a good skinner/modeller if he just practise and starts to mae his own works |
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[WaRdeN]
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I invite everyone to discuss this on
irc.wireheadstudios.net
#tfc-whs
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« Last Edit: 2003-08-25, 23:26 by [WaRdeN] »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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Sigh, this seems to be rapidly devolving into a flamewar indeed.
GK, I'm sorry to say it, but you're behaving rather obnoxious when it comes to this topic- if you plan to go on that way, at least leave me out of your posts.. I don't need anyone making me look more like an Ass ? than I already am- thanks.
I have no intention of suggesting that I'm a good artist, nor do I judge the qualitites of others, unwanted - (well, not anymore, since old foots went buckwild :] )
Uber, you're missing my point (and perhaps some others too, can't be the judge of that) - I've posted the last bit about the 'model rip' matter on the Custom-TFC forum, and yes, that's really what I feel and all I wish(ed) to say about it at that time.
I just keep hoping that some people will realize that they made a slight booboo, correct it without going nuts (much like oop did) and learn from it. If anyone thinks WH's reaction is weird, I'm sorry, but you're in for a shock, most sensible mod teams would be like this. Plus I'm not even talking about all the GamesKeeper-like-mod-fans out there now ;]
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« Last Edit: 2003-08-25, 22:43 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Woodsman
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i with warden i think we should discuss this further in the wirehead channel . if you believe custom TFC is worth defending you should have the nads to defend it live.
well lads men or mice?
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PHISH
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After browsing through the site its pretty evident, though you may not realize, that this is a just hobby site, not a commercial enterprise like you seem to treat it. Players like to use "themes"...in the same sense that there are themes for desktops etc to alter the game experience. as well as making their own crosshairs etc and just customizing the game to suit their tastes. While I agree that if credit was not given they should be taken off(this may have been in a few cases), I find it a tad ridiculous to pursue anything else... and completely ridiculous about some of the attitudes i've seen in here.
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foreveR
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Exactly what PHISH said. You guys treat this FAR more seriously than anyone in TFC ever would. C-TFC is a collection of quite a few modelers and skinners. Don't assume because you see work that you don't consider to be any good that there aren't good modelers out there, several of which could easily pick up Q3 and produce models, skins, sprites, etc just as good as any of you. Many times it is never even the modelers fault. They sometimes do requests and someone could easily DCC them the model they wanted altered without ever saying where it came from or anything of the sort. Also, Ooppee never did anything he thought was wrong and he certainly never made anything without proper credit. It's always in the "README" that comes in the zip with the model, sprite, etc. Wanna know why Q3 and Q3F models and skins are used or wanted? Want to guess what engine TFC runs on? Want to guess where a large majority of TFC players came from? Want to guess where TFC came from?
Don't take this the wrong way, but it's very laughable to see how serious you think we take it. I don't think anyone except MAYBE 1-2 people might be doing this modeling to help them improve a portfolio or anything of the sort. 99.9% of the people do it for fun and taught themselves.
Again, I agree that without proper credit, that your course of action is fine, but if the parties are unknowing about the situation concerning intellectual property and copyright material, there's no need to go nuts over it. It's very easy to tell the mature from the immature here as to who's let it drop since he so quickly dropped everything and those who threaten to send the site to companies for legal action(which sounds completely pathetic).
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[WaRdeN]
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I still dont know how this got out of hand.
We asked that our models be removed, the admins of the site complied. All is done.
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Lilazzkicker
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Also, Ooppee never did anything he thought was wrong and he certainly never made anything without proper credit. It's always in the "README" that comes in the zip with the model, sprite, etc. Uhm, how about a big bullshit? I dled several files from the site, and not one of the files included a readme with it. So whos lying to who? Again, I agree that without proper credit, that your course of action is fine, but if the parties are unknowing about the situation concerning intellectual property and copyright material, there's no need to go nuts over it. It's very easy to tell the mature from the immature here as to who's let it drop since he so quickly dropped everything and those who threaten to send the site to companies for legal action(which sounds completely pathetic). Cmon, its plain stupid to ignore whats in your face, what happened to site moderation? Someone checking the files? Unless you live under a rock, there is no reason you could not know about copywrite issues. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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Most of the reactions from either side were rather over the top imho too, phish&forever. Speaking for myself, proper handling of my work does concern me quite a bit, and I'm not ashamed to say that. Like I said before, no matter what the other party wants to use stuff for, asking is the primary factor in this, proper crediting is next on the rather short list of things I request and expect. Aside from that, any messages about details concerning legal rights, the law etc, any posts containing phrases such as 'whining', 'crying', 'jackass', 'loser' and a shiteload of such tactless and whitless repartees are totally unnecessary. It seems a lot of people are looking forward to a good flamewar (and who am I to try and talk them out of it), however, so have fun with that folks! Too many has been said about this matter altogether, so I'll just keep out of it, and really consider this to be my last post about it all (this seems to be the third 'last' post I've typed up on the various boards  ). |
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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games keeper
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Posts: 1375
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Unless you live under a rock something against living under a rock ? :blink: |
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Phoenix
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Forever, Phish, Uber... anyone else who thinks there's "no harm done" in all of this, I have something for you to think on. I worked very hard on many of those models that were used without permission. All of the Doom models are my personal creation, and a few of the Strogg models too, along with the Slipgate shaft model that was so hideously merged with the Strogg super shotgun. Hedhunta and Renalicious worked hard on the others, and Tabun and Captain Howdy worked very hard to skin them and make them look as good as they are. Some of the Slipgate models were provided by the Classic Quake Arena team, graciously and with THEIR PERMISSION are they used. We did have their permission. Ooppie did not have ours. That's what this boils down to - theft. I take my work very seriously. So does everyone on this team. You can't just up and run with something that isn't yours and think no harm is done. Just because something is digital and not a tangible object does NOT make it any different from stealing a real object. How would you feel if you worked hard building a new computer, taken months to lay out a good case mod, installed, set up, and perfected it, only to have someone come along and take it, then say it's their own? What if you worked hard writing a video game, and someone else stole your code, and released it, claiming it was theirs? You wouldn't think it funny if someone took your work without permission, without asking, or even seeming to care whether or not you gave a hoot about it. It's NOT a joke to us.
While we're flattered that people think our models are good enough for others to want to use them, the point is that they DO belongs to US. WIREHEAD. It's OUR stuff, and we did NOT say anyone could use it in this manner. I don't think we need to lighten up on this issue one bit. We have a right - and a responsibility - to protect what is ours. We didn't create it to hoard it to ourselves, indeed, we created it so people could use these models, weapons, and gameplay within the framework that WE intended to see it released. Sure, we want people to download our models - but from our mod, and within the game we intended them to be used. We want people to see them and use them within Generations Arena first and foremost. Does that mean we won't ever let anyone else use them for a project? Not necessarily, but we're not exactly done with them, and until that time we don't see any reason why we should let unfinished works be used, especially without our permission. It's that simple. WE reserve all rights in regards to our intellectual property, and we will defend that right. Like it or not, that's how it is. Other companies would sue first and ask questions later. Notice that we did do everything possible to work this out peacefully? We're not trying to be bastards, we're just being fair. We're not out to "get" anyone. We just want to make sure nobody tramples on our rights, steals our stuff, and defrauds us of our hard work.
Now, as Ooppie has said he'd remove the models, and Warden has said everyone discussed this, and that he has done so, I don't see why any further discussion is warranted on this. Our position is clear, and we're not backtracking on it, Ooppie has complied, so bitching and moaning and flaming the boards will not change anything. Let's just drop it where it is and move on.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Arno
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] I still dont know how this got out of hand.
We asked that our models be removed, the admins of the site complied. All is done. Yeah, Wirehead has no reason to complain any further, but I understand why some of the users from custom-TFC are upset. They had no idea that what they're doing was illegal and then suddenly a large portion of the site is gone. I remember very well that Q2 Generations didn't go down without a lot of heated discussions. It takes time before people understand and accept the legal reality. What I'm trying to say is that Wirehead has every right to take what's theirs. I would do exactly the same if I was in a situation like this. It's just that I also understand the angry response from the custom-TFC people, since I was just as upset when Q2 Generations got shutdown. It's a learning experience. |
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ty50n
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Hey sorry for reviving an old thread but there is something I think the generations team needs to know... The laughing stock of the TFC customization community OoPpEe was the one who stole your models and agreed to remove them. However he only partially removed them, some of the stolen material (2 bfg's and a doom plasma rifle) can be found here and in this model pack done by him (littered with stolen things) here. If this was already known then sorry, but I hate ooppee and the fact that he doesnt have the balls to make his own models. His email is ooppee@hotmail.com and if he doesnt cooperate then you can ask any of the admins (except uber hes an idiot) at www.custom-tfc.co.uk. Again sorry for the thread revival and I hope ooppee dies a painful death  |
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[WaRdeN]
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No problem, we'll take care of this, thanks.
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ConfusedUs
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Blood makes the grass grow. KILL KILL KILL!
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