Tekhead
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Posts: 1110
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I know Phoenix doesn't like it when I refer to how CPMA does things, but I like how they balanced out the BFG. To make it more even with the rest of the guns (but still keep it as the strongest gun in the game), they've drastically slowed down the firing rate of the gun by about -250% I think altering the Arena BFG's firing rate would be fair for the other classes without hindering the real performance of it. It'd turn it into a powerful tactical weapon instead of an overpowered spam cannon. Also, the ammo for the BFG would last longer instead of being depleted in 10 seconds  Lemme know what you think... - Tekhead |
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dev/null
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Wow, you're able to keep ammo in your BFG for ten seconds? With how small those ammo boxes are, I have a hard time conserving. Of course, I always go straight for the railgun when I'm an Arena Gladiator (which is rare)
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
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Posts: 1011
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I think lee's already talked about this, but in keeping with the idea of gen, I think the spamcannon stays.
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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Dicion
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well considering if you're GOOD with the bfg, you wont need more then 1 or 2 shots..
and thats about how many i fire at a time... i never spamcannon it... It wastes ammo. A BFG is worth 10+ kills if used properly.. on newly spawned meat that is ;P
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ConfusedUs
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Ugh. The Q3BFG blows. I seriously wish we'd do SOMETHING with it. We were considering giving it the Hunt BFG at one point...I really wish we would. All of the other BFGs have their downsides, but not the arena BFG.
It's not just lame, it's lame-tastic.
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Tekhead
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Posts: 1110
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As the latest & greatest BFG in iD games, I think it should be the strongest all-around weapon. However with its current rate of fire, it's impossible to defend against at any range in any situation. Reducing the firing rate would make it so that more skill would be required to use it effectively - rather than spamming it all over the place almost-garunteeing at least one kill, tweak it so that it fires once every 1.5 seconds or something like that. It'll still be the deadliest weapon in the game in the hands of skilled players, but it'll be more respectable due to the lack of spam it normally generates...
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ConfusedUs
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As the latest & greatest BFG in iD games, I think it should be the strongest all-around weapon and tweak it so that it fires once every 1.5 seconds or something like that. The q3BFG plasmaball doesn't do all that much damage. It's major strength, and the only thing that qualifies it as a BFG is the rapid refire. Take that away, and it's just a big gun, similar in power to the q2 rail or sniper rifle, but with splash damage. If we're gonna change it, I think we should CHANGE it. The Hunt BFG worked something like this: Instant fire, no chargeup Ball traveled at a speed somewhere between that of the BFG9000 and the Strogg BFG10k. Ball did massive damgae When the ball exploded, it did damage based on the size of the room. The smaller the room, the more concentrated the damage. Still does massive splash in the open, but it's deadly as hell when enclosed. BFG had a chargeDOWN, meaning that if anyone survived the blast you're a sitting duck for a second till you can switch. This BFG is far deadlier in a small room or hallway than the others, due to its instant firing. The DOOM and Q2 BFGs have that chargeup, plenty of time for people to run like hell, or hide from the blast. Personally, I rarely get hit by a 9k, and usually only nicked by the 10k's tracers, even in a small room. In addition, this would kinda round out the BFG lineup. BFG9000: Best for flat, open areas BFG10k: Excellent for Mid-sized rooms Proposed q3BFG: Made for smaller areas. As the current q3 BFG stands, there's really no escape from it other than extreme range and a crack railshot. By time you know someone has it, you're usually dead, or will be shortly. With the proposed Hunt BFG, you still wouldn't have much chance to hide, but at least if you survive the blast, you'd have a chance to retaliate. This would cover the 1.5 second refire, still awesome in the hands of a skilled player, insanely powerful weapon that you described above, while still being a BFG. |
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Tekhead
Elite
Posts: 1110
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Not really... then people would use it like an overpowered shotgun. Instant-kills all over the server.
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ConfusedUs
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Not really... then people would use it like an overpowered shotgun. Instant-kills all over the server. What do you call a Doom SSG? A strogg rail to the unarmored? An earth sniper bullet up the butt? A slippy rocket in the face? Most of these result in an instant kill, and ammo is plentiful. BFG ammo is hard to come by in most maps. And if your opponents let you stockpile...then that's their fault. They could always pick you off at a distance  P.S. Moving these to the Gen Forum, where they belong. |
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Tekhead
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Posts: 1110
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yes, instant kills, but non-aimed, skilless annoying kills that seem like their only purpose is to piss of players. Blindly firing into a room or close to a target is called spam, and to reward that kind of playing with frags is wrong. Doom takes his chances when getting up close to get that SSG shot off, and Strogg lines up his shot carefully to make the railgun work its magic. Arena may as well be drinking beer, watching pr0n and playing Gen. It wouldn't phase him a bit with the level of skill required to use his BFG.
The BFG shot does pack a punch. Less damage than a rocket, but it makes up for that greatly with splash damage and KNOCKBACK! You can knock players around like Slippy can with his RL using the Q3BFG.
more on this later...
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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I play quite a bit q3a FFA when I have some time to kill - and not ONE server I've been on had the BFG enabled.. with good reason obviously. In Gen it's not as easy- I wouldn't want to miss the good old 9k & 10k for the world, let alone earth's dualgats ;]
On another note, quad damage / invul are worse then any bfg ever was, imo.
- parses data -
Conclusion: the bfg's never ruined any of my games really - I wouldn't use it often myself, but I wouldn't mind others using it. :]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
Posts: 1011
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*snicker* survive the hunt bfg? *choke* *cough* SURVIVE THE HUNT BFG?!
Heh, anyhoo, as for firing blindly being "spam" with doom's rl, the only effective firing you can DO has to be half-blind because the things are so BLOODY FREAKIN SLOW..
And frankly, if anyone isn't allowed to complain about spam, it's a slippy player..
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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ConfusedUs
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And frankly, if anyone isn't allowed to complain about spam, it's a slippy player.. Amen to that |
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Tekhead
Elite
Posts: 1110
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Is my name Twilight? :blink:
Last I checked - NEIN!!!
(<3 to him tho!)
At any rate, there's got to be a way to level out Arena's BFG so that it's still fair. Right now, for him it may as well be a Quad Damage whenever he gets one. Any other ideas on what could be done to it, aside from the ones already posted? Like the ideas already submitted? Let's get this topic going!
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« Last Edit: 2003-09-19, 13:50 by Tekhead »
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ConfusedUs
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We've done a lot of talk about this in the past. A lot. We've had all sorts of thoughts about what we could change the q3BFG to. Vortexs, electrical storms, you name it.
In the end we decided to leave all the weapons as is. To leave q3 as he was, and just change the powerups (see the other thread) so that the other classes didn't have a huge advantage in that area.
I personally think, however, that leaving the Q3BFG as is was the single dumbest idea we had. If we're on a map with a BFG (vesperas, entryway, eternal arenas), at least 3/4ths of the time someone will go arena, pick up this spam cannon, and go to town. Look at dicions forum game -- I rocked thread. On entryway he wasn't doing so hot UNTIL he picked up the q3bfg. Then no one stood a chance in hell.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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Let's not forget the fact that acquiring a BFG is that much easier when there's an earth player trodding about :]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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ConfusedUs
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At least one that doesn't know NOT to use duals when he's about to bite it. |
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
Posts: 1011
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heh, yes, this is true  Anyhoo, the q3 bfh MAY change in the future, but we'll have to talk with pho and everyone involved in order to reach some sort of agreement on that.. |
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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Phoenix
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I'm still against making changes to the Q3 weapons lineup. I know people complain about the Q3 BFG, but let me bring up a few points here.
First, how common is the BFG? How many maps actually have one floating around?
Second, how many shots do you get if you kill an Earth guy who's using dual gats on a map that doesn't have one?
Third, what kind of ammo does the Q3 BFG use?
The BFG is not a very common weapon. While it does tend to kill people quite easily, it has one key disadvantage to the other two BFG's. It does not have the area effect that tends to guarantee a kill. It takes a more precise hit to do the trick. The BFG10K uses a hell of a lot more power, but can vaporize 4 or 5 people in close proximity with one shot, if the shot is good. The BFG9000 can clear a small room without trouble. Getting hit with the ball by either is instant death. The Arena BFG does kick out shots a lot faster, but you only have 10 shots unless you can get more ammo. That spam can dry up pretty quick. Let's take a map like Gen-q2dm1. Give Lilazzkicker dualgats, and then I run along and kill him. Someone grabs the BFG class weapon he just dropped. For a Doomer, that BFG9000 is a godsend. There's plenty of plasma ammo floating around, and Doom has no trouble running it. For a Strogg Trooper, that BFG10K is also a godsend. He can grab cells just the same as the Doomer, and each cell pack is an extra shot. Each of those classes can keep building up cells and unleash hell with their BFG as long as they stay alive, and balance it out with the other non-energy weapons until more ammo is acquired. The Arena guy, on the other hand, has 10 shots and has to make them count. On a map without a BFG spawn, he's the one who has the disadvantage in that department.
Where the Arena BFG is evil is on a map where you have a skilled Arena player and a LOT of BFG ammo available. Vesperas is the worst map to go up against on this because of the amount of BFG ammo and the proximity of the BFG's teleport gateway spawn to the invulnerability room. An Arena Gladiator can really clean house there, but I would add, so can a Doomer, and so can a Strogg Trooper. Anyone who's played me on that map knows this. I've been insulted for it a few times, but there's no law that says I can't use a certain gun, nor is there a law forbidding anyone else from trying to KEEP me from using that gun. Kill or be killed, that's the law of the Frag, right?
I have a question to ask about this. Should we begin to mod along the following lines?
Complaint: Shotgun is too powerful.
Mod Team: Ok, we'll nerf it.
Complaint: Railgun is too powerful.
Mod Team: Ok, we'll nerf it.
Complaint: Rocket launcher is too powerful.
Mod Team: Ok, we'll nerf it.
Complaint: Lightning gun is too powerful.
Mod Team: Ok, we'll nerf it.
Is this how to write a game? I've played many games of Quake 2 where I've been railed over and over by someone with 30 ping who damn near never misses. I'm sure Quakeworld players know how devastating the rocket launcher and Thunderbolt are compared to the other weapons on the game, yet constantly I hear "Q1 is all about Rockets and Shaft" and "Q2 is all about the rail." Nobody bitches about those weapons now, but what about when the games were brand new? I've played games in Q2 where someone used nothing but the BFG and was near the bottom of the scoreboard. On the other hand, I've also used the BFG and taken out the offending l337 r41|_0|2 d00d and climbed back up a few frags. Yet again, in RA2, I've been pulverized by people on the other team who think it's funny to use two chainguns and waste someone from the getgo.
In every situation, one person considers something cheap, the other considers it good strategy. In the RA2 situation, I consider chaining like that to be cheap. I cannot, however, argue with it's effectiveness at getting the job (killing the opposing team) done. Same with the situation with the guy with the rail. In the case of the guy I vaporized with the 10K, he might think my using the BFG to kill him was cheap, but it did the trick, it was on the map for me to use, and it was part of the game. Even though I've bitched about the Q2 rail in the past, I've also been the l337 r41|_0|2 d00d wasting people right and left in Q2 who couldn't hit the broad side of a hangar bay. I've been accused of cheating before with a 250 ping just because the other guy was losing and had 100 ping and I wasn't playing the way he wanted me to. It's all a matter of perspective really.
We did some "balancing" on the weapons on 99a, and look what the result was. It threw the feel of the game completely off. 99b improved on this a bit, but wasn't perfect either. 99c feels so much better than 99b, even though some weapons were actually made STRONGER, like the Q1 rocket launcher, that were already strong and other already weak weapons, like the Q2 rocket launcher, were made a hair weaker by bringing them back in line with the original game. The end result is that Generations FEELS better than it did, and plays better. The strategy used for each class is now falling in more closely to the old-school game. THAT IS WHAT GEN IS ALL ABOUT! Just because one player dominates one map with a weapon doesn't give a strong enough case to change it. If someone dominates Bouncy Map with the Q2 rail should we change that as well? Or the sniper rifle? Do we nerf Skippy's rockets again because they're so damned evil to be on the other end of? Or is it possible some of this could be considered whining because someone lost a game or two to the big bad BFG? I know that remark will ruffle some feathers, but to those who might be offended I ask you to think about how many times you've dominated someone with a particular gun, then tell me if you'd like your favorite weapon nerfed because someone else thought it was too strong.
My suggestion is this: For now, if someone's winning a map by using the Arena BFG, take them on at their own game. Play dirty pool. Do whatever it takes to win. If that means hunting that person down and denying them the weapon then that's strategy too. If it means spawn killing them at every turn, do it! That's cheap, you might say? Well, if you consider the BFG cheap, what's the difference? Fight fire with fire. Get your own BFG. Switch classes if you need to. Adjust your strategy first, and THEN complain about weapon balance. Take a look at your ping, too. If you're losing to someone with 20-30 ping and yours is 100+ then changing a weapon isn't going to help. I slaughtered Lil with the Q3 BFG using 1 shot at a time, direct hits as opposed to spam, on Firestorm a while back. It was nearly impossible to miss because of my ping being nearly non-existant, and I never use Arena or the Q3BFG in actual play unless I'm random class. If there's a large ping difference then I'm sorry, it's not a weapon balance issue; It's a ping issue. Consider that as well.
I'm not completely ruling out that some change might not take place in the future to the Q3 BFG if it continues to be a problem, I don't really like the gun personally, but if we can I'd prefer to not mess with how Id intended the weapon to be.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
Posts: 1011
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And there's the official ruling. I'm with pho on this one, changing the arena class just isn't in keeping with the generations theme. While it might be an interesting idea, it's departing from what gen is all about.
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"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
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