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Wirehead Studios > Wirehead Modifications > Generations Arena > Arena BFG
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Phoenix
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« on: 2004-01-22, 21:52 »
Well, what's your opinion on this gun?
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ConfusedUs
 

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« Reply #1 on: 2004-01-22, 22:03 »
hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate
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dna
 
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« Reply #2 on: 2004-01-22, 22:27 »
I'd rather face Arena BFG than Doom BFG.  At least Arena BFG takes some skill to aim it with Slipgate - Wink
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Angst
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« Reply #3 on: 2004-01-22, 22:27 »
The Arena BFG is NOT a bfg.
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« Reply #4 on: 2004-01-22, 23:48 »
I prefer the HUNT mod's Arena BFG rather than a rapid fire rocketlauncher with high splash damage.
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Tekhead
 
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« Reply #5 on: 2004-01-23, 00:37 »
Incredibly lopsided. No class fully-loaded can take that thing on. Requires minimal skill to get a frag with under normal circumstances. Usually as effective as a quadded slipgater RL or quadded doom CG. It's one weapon that Generations could do without.

The Arena BFG seems more like an afterthought filler gun than something that was put into serious consideration for gameplay. Consider the complexity (and awesomeness) of the BFG9000 and the BFG10K. Then look at the Q3 BFG. It's just not cool.

*thumbs down*
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Tekhead
 
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« Reply #6 on: 2004-01-23, 00:38 »
Quote from: dna
I'd rather face Arena BFG than Doom BFG.  At least Arena BFG takes some skill to aim it with Slipgate - Wink
You're joking I hope...
(please excuse the double-post)
« Last Edit: 2004-01-23, 00:38 by Tekhead » Logged
Footman
 

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« Reply #7 on: 2004-01-23, 00:54 »
The Arena BFG is ultimate spam cannon. It's the only gun newbs would complain about if you changed it. Why? A rapid fireing rocket launcher with very high missle speed and high splash damage is hardly a strategic weapon, and many like it when you don't have to think to use a weapon wisely. <_<
« Last Edit: 2004-01-23, 00:54 by Footman » Logged
dna
 
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« Reply #8 on: 2004-01-23, 01:31 »
Hmm, I figured it was newbs that complained about it.
I would complain if you changed anything about the Arena class, from reducing the BFG to putting the Gauntlet on steroids to make it more comparable to the chainsaw.  To put all this work into making each class as true to itself as possible and then change something about the class that should be the simplest to implement (by leaving it alone) doesn't make sense to me.  Apparently some people must feel that the other classes can't stand up to the Arena class.
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Tekhead
 
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« Reply #9 on: 2004-01-23, 01:58 »
Quote from: dna
Hmm, I figured it was newbs that complained about it.
I would complain if you changed anything about the Arena class, from reducing the BFG to putting the Gauntlet on steroids to make it more comparable to the chainsaw.  To put all this work into making each class as true to itself as possible and then change something about the class that should be the simplest to implement (by leaving it alone) doesn't make sense to me.  Apparently some people must feel that the other classes can't stand up to the Arena class.
The Q3 Gauntlet is already more powerful than the Doom chainsaw. 2 lovetaps from it will force most anything to respawn soon afterwards. (Doubt me? I'll show you on a server - just ask)

It's not fun to play against something which is near-impossible to counter, even if the user of that something is inept. It's even worse in the hands of someone proficent. This is why many Q3 servers have the BFG filtered out or don't play maps/mods with the BFG in it.

The Doom BFG has its counter - don't be in the line of sight of the user or kill them before they get the shot off. The Q2 BFG has a counter as well - kill user before it goes off or run away; the charging time for the BFG10K is longer than the BFG9000, and the shot is slower. This is why Q2dm8 got a lot of playing time on Q2 servers (aside from it being a really fun map in iteself) - because the BFG10K was acceptably balanced with the other Q2 weapons.

The Q3 BFG is like an automatic Q1 RL. Not fun. I'd like to see a fun, properly-themed replacement for it in Gen because imo it doesn't even belong in Q3.
« Last Edit: 2004-01-23, 01:59 by Tekhead » Logged
Kain-Xavier
 

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« Reply #10 on: 2004-01-23, 02:01 »
I don't mind one way or another, but I do agree that the Arena BFG isn't a weapon that particularly involves a great deal of thought when putting it to use.  Rather than just slowing it down or nixing it entirely though, I'd like to see what ideas the WHS team can come up with.
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ConfusedUs
 

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« Reply #11 on: 2004-01-23, 02:13 »
Quote from: Tekhead
The Q3 Gauntlet is already more powerful than the Doom chainsaw. 2 lovetaps from it will force most anything to respawn soon afterwards. (Doubt me? I'll show you on a server - just ask)
Each has their ups and downs, but the guantlet does 50 damage per slap, while the saw has a slightly longer range and 'sticks'. I'd put them about equal in strength.

Quote
It's not fun to play against something which is near-impossible to counter, even if the user of that something is inept. It's even worse in the hands of someone proficent. This is why many Q3 servers have the BFG filtered out or don't play maps/mods with the BFG in it.
The BFG is much more prevalent in Gen than in standard Q3. EVERY map has the potential to have a BFG, if the earth guy drops dual gats.

Quote
The Doom BFG has its counter - don't be in the line of sight of the user or kill them before they get the shot off. The Q2 BFG has a counter as well - kill user before it goes off or run away; the charging time for the BFG10K is longer than the BFG9000, and the shot is slower. This is why Q2dm8 got a lot of playing time on Q2 servers (aside from it being a really fun map in iteself) - because the BFG10K was acceptably balanced with the other Q2 weapons.
Their charge up times are the same, but the rest is true. Both weapons, while fully capable of clearing a room, require a bit of finesse. There are a LOT of people who simply cannot use the Doom BFG to good effect. The Q2 BFG is slightly easier to use, but it is also much easier to avoid. It's nearly impossible to be 'sneaky' with the q2BFG, unlike  the Doom BFG.

Quote
The Q3 BFG is like an automatic Q1 RL. Not fun. I'd like to see a fun, properly-themed replacement for it in Gen because imo it doesn't even belong in Q3.
We've resisted changes to the Arena class in the past. However, in 99d, we have recieved only two major complaints: The q1 RL is far too strong, and the q3BFG ruins the fun. Take a map like Dead Simple, which is a long-standing favorite in Doom, and is probably the single most-remade map out there. This map includes a BFG. I usually sit out in this map if there's ANYONE playing as arena.

Why? Because the q3BFG just pisses me off. I hate it. There's no way to avoid it. If someone's halfway skilled, you die. If they're not, you'll still likely die. I can at least duck out of the way of the BFG9000 or hide from the BFG10k from Q2. And I've heard lots of complaints about this from other players as well...

In short, the q3BFG is cheap, spamtastic, and nearly impossible to avoid.
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ConfusedUs
 

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« Reply #12 on: 2004-01-23, 02:14 »
Quote from: Kain-Xavier
I don't mind one way or another, but I do agree that the Arena BFG isn't a weapon that particularly involves a great deal of thought when putting it to use.  Rather than just slowing it down or nixing it entirely though, I'd like to see what ideas the WHS team can come up with.
We have a pretty nifty effect in the works.
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ReBoOt
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« Reply #13 on: 2004-01-23, 03:31 »
Yupp arena BFG is terrible..still it's a q3 gun but i don't mind nerfing it down abit, or at least make its firerate slower, and reduce the ammo.
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Angst
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« Reply #14 on: 2004-01-23, 05:13 »
The arena "BFG" I'll hesitantly call it, is NOT going to be nerfed, it's going to be changed from a spamcannon to something not-lame.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #15 on: 2004-01-23, 06:05 »
Yes, we have been hashing ideas around about how to change this evil thing, and we've come up with what I think is a good one in theory.  The basic idea is to create a more balanced weapon that has its drawbacks like any other BFG, can still do a one-shot area kill, has a nifty effect, and differs in some dramatic way from the other two BFG's.  I won't spill it here because we want to playtest it first.  No point in having people whine or applaud something that's only theoretical at this point.  

For the "purists" there will be a server cvar that will keep the old Arena BFG exactly as it has been if the server admin so chooses.  Part of the reason we put this poll up was to see what people's feelings are and if they matched what the team has been thinking, which for the most part we're almost all in agreement that the Q3 BFG SUCKS.
« Last Edit: 2004-01-23, 06:05 by Phoenix » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: 2004-01-23, 14:14 »
I'm going to be locked away in a meat factory for this but I don't think the Q3 BFG is that bad.

Consider how rare BFG's are in the first place.  Very few maps contain them.

Furthermore, the other classes have somewhat of an advantage over Q3, seeing how Q3's BFG runs on only BFG ammo.  Doom and Strogg can find cells at a pretty good rate, and the "BFG" of Earth and Slipgate uses some common material as well.

Once a player HAS a Q3BFG, I admit things get pretty wild, but you only get 20 shots with that thing unless you find more ammo, and by then you could be blown up, railed, sniped, guned down, or evaporated.  It does make you pretty unstopable for those 20 shots, but once your out, its back to some fairly normal play.

Don't NERF it.  Tweek it.  Maybe give it 10 shots to start with, or lower its rate of fire, like someone else said.  Perhaps lower some of its splash radius?  Not a complete overhaul.  Just a little balancing.

EDIT:  Just read the "purists" idea Phoenix posted.  Good idea Slipgate - Smile  Above there is just my opinion.  If the majority wishes to change it, I don't care.  Just stating what I think, y'know.
« Last Edit: 2004-01-23, 14:20 by Rubilacxe » Logged
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Angst
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« Reply #17 on: 2004-01-23, 18:24 »
Quote
Don't NERF it. Tweek it. Maybe give it 10 shots to start with, or lower its rate of fire, like someone else said. Perhaps lower some of its splash radius? Not a complete overhaul. Just a little balancing.
That IS nerfing.

I'm not saying make the arena bfg weaker, the q2 bfg was arguably more powerful than the doom bfg. I think the bfg should be brought into line so that we can call it a bfg, and be proud of it. While I'm sure everyone has ideas, I know I'm not alone on this, I think I'll just wait and see what pho cooks up for us. But make no mistake, we'll do that line of weapons proud Slipgate - Laugh
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« Reply #18 on: 2004-01-23, 18:42 »
I love it when its in my hands , hate it when anyone else has it exept me Slipgate - Sad
and in most cases its part 2 so I will vote on "HATE "
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dna
 
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« Reply #19 on: 2004-01-23, 19:49 »
How would you implement this then?  I guess if you guys are going to make a completely new Arena BFG with area effect and all, I would vote that you have to replace the model as well.  I mean , if you are going to make a new BFG, make a new BFG.    Something more in tune with the BFG line of models, you know?  The Arena BFG never looked like it came from that class of weapon.  
Also, would it then run off of plasma cells like Doom and Q2 BFG?  Cause Arena BFG ammo is not very plentifull.  The one advantage it had was for those 20 shots, it was one hell of a gun.  If you take away the power it has and then strangle it for ammo (I can't think of one map remake that includes BFG ammo while they all have Doom and Q2 energy cells), that really hobbles the class I think.  Not for nerfing the BFG, but for even restricting the use of the new Wirehead BFG due to ammo consumption.    All Doom or Grunt has to do is get a few more cells, but Arena guy really has to work to get his ammo, you know?
Something else: perhaps then you could make the id Arena BFG a super weapon available to all classes?  And give it back the rarity that everyone thinks it deserves?  But  unbalances no one class, just gives the guy who has it the power regardless of class. (yeah, fat chance of that, I know - just tossing out ideas  Slipgate - Tongue)
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