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Author Topic: Return to the Cistern  (Read 62182 times)
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #80 on: 2009-10-13, 04:17 »

Well you could turn off auto-aiming in Q1 with a console command.. 'noaim 1' I believe.. so that was never a concern of mine. Slipgate - Smile

As for the Q3 bots.. yea, they're dumb like that. They even get distracted quite easily if someone gets within proximity. Like they'll run to push the button to open the door, then forget about it because someone just ran up the stairs.. letting the door close back up again. Viable tactic at times, sure, but with the pure layout I'd gamble and go pickup the RL and MH anyway. Slipgate - Smile

They do the same thing with the grate on q3dm7 though.. hang by the grate even when it's closed because they don't realize they need to push the button first. Doubt it would be a simple map fix.
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« Reply #81 on: 2009-10-13, 12:36 »

Here's alpha 5:
tabq1dm5_alpha5.zip

Bots should be lured to the waterroom alcove a lot more. Still not really often on the nonpure version, but this is all I can do without pretty much breaking bot behaviour anyway.
I did swap the MH & RA - keeping the weaker item right next to the weapon (RG) spawn, and making a dive/jump towards the alcove better worth the trouble and danger.

Fire away!
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #82 on: 2009-10-14, 06:19 »

The map plays well with the railgun. I was expecting a bit of dominance when using it, but the lack of an ammo spawn evens that out a little.. then again, I'm not the best shot with the railgun. A bot even managed to grenade me after I made it into the room, so that swap paid off a bit too.

The bots went to the water alcove quite a bit, so that was good as well.

The lower area of the pillar room feels like it needs something more, but I'm really not sure what.. and it also might just be me.

Only other thing is the pure version of the map didn't show up on the in-game map list. I checked, and it seems you forgot to include the .arena file for it. Slipgate - Smile

That said, the pure version still plays perfectly. I forgot to keep an eye on how often the bots went to the alcove on that one though.
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« Reply #83 on: 2009-10-14, 18:31 »

With 4 bots running around, they went for the armor.  I noticed that if they dropped down the ledge onto the walkway, they just exited the room, but if they entered the water room by the stairs under the button area they'd go swimming for the items in the water and just about always check the armor spawn.  One time the fighting moved down into the water area and the bots just went nuts over the armor spot while they were fighting.  It seems as long as they're in the wet stuff they'll try to get to it, and as long as they're not all fighting each other they'll make an attempt to go downstairs every so often.  I'd say the issue of the bots not getting armor has been fixed.  No complaints about game play.  Seems to work pretty good to me.
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« Reply #84 on: 2009-10-20, 03:07 »

Very close the final now, I feel. I've got some very good feedback on the Q3W forums. Mostly positive but with nice pointers and useful nitpicks. The non-pure version is affected primarily.

Biggest changes for the non-pure are visual. Stairs have been made steeper, for they were a bit out of scale. Biggest gameplay change is that there's now a (somewhat tricky) way out of the pit besides the SG/YA. You can jump on some bricks/ledges to get out there, so it isn't a dead end anymore. Another (test of a) gameplay change is an alternative teleporter destination when you hop in the back end (opposite the bloody Q). Not sure if I want to keep that, yet, but it's there to see how it plays.

Beta 2 download:
tabq1dm5_beta2.zip
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« Reply #85 on: 2009-10-20, 23:52 »

I don't know what you did to the bot logic, but they love the sewer area now, in fact, a little too much.  They definitely go for the armor, lightning gun, and the other items quite frequently, but they tend to all jump below and fight and not really roam.  They won't use the button anymore either.  I only got Sarge to hit it once while spectating the bots, and the bots avoid the big door completely now.  They also seem to like to bounce between the two teleporters a lot.  I know the bots like to congregate and fight in one spot on any map, but they've moved from clumping in front of the door to clumping in the water or stairs near the water.  On the upside, they're not hitching the game that I can see, but I think that's due to them not getting as confused near the button or doors.

The alternate teleport on the back of the Q I don't like.  It's too close to that area to really be a good destination.  I'd leave that as it was.  It gives one "safe" entrance to enter to get to that other teleporter, whereas the other teleporter is flat out dangerous no matter what.  Having the backside of the Q teleporter go somewhere else breaks the flow of the map.  I think it's better to keep it as a safer exit from the button area than using the front side of the teleport.

The rocks out of that blind pocket are nice.  I'd say that's a keeper.
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Tabun
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« Reply #86 on: 2009-10-21, 01:43 »

Don't know what's going on with the bots at the moment. I know about the TP-hopping, got some things to try to fix that. Probably will go away if I remove the alternative tele-destination. Regarding the latter: I'm not too fond of it myself. Q3W-folks really liked the idea, so I put it in there for testing. Right now it's teleporting to the pit next to the SG. That's better, but I think I still prefer normal (and logical) function.

I've noticed that bot-behaviour changes per game, too. If they keep running into eachother in the same area, the fight is going to lure other bots in (especially when the weapons start dropping). This can happen in various places, but it tends to happen more in the water. I guess that's because it takes them longer to get done roaming the area. I haven't changed anything that would directly affect bots between beta1 and beta2, so your guess is as good as mine here.

I'm working on some other changes aswell. The water is in for improvement, and should come out properly lightmapped. I'm also changing gameplay by adding some "shortcuts" - much in the style of the way out of the pit near the SG. The map was too linear to be interesting for long, and this way there will be a slight learning curve to the map that might keep people interested and make more tactical plays possible. Needless to say, pure will stay pure. :]

If anyone's interested in seeing what Q3W people are discussing, here's the thread.
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #87 on: 2009-10-21, 03:00 »

I only did a quick run through, but it seemed well enough. I will agree with Pho about the extra teleport however.. and the steeper stairs confuses me, but that's easy to get used to.

The bricks at the bottom of that pit are a nice touch. That was the one area of the original map that bugged me the most because it was pretty much a dead end. Slipgate - Thumbs up!
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« Reply #88 on: 2009-10-21, 18:57 »

I was so busy watching the bots I forgot to take note of the stair design changes.  The stairs feel inconsistent being broken up like that.  Aesthetically it looks better on the previous revision.  I also think this might be affecting bot navigation a little... probably not as severe as the teleport destination, but it does change their routing and that might be a clue as to why they're clumping up a bit more.  They might want to navigate more off the stairs and with the ledges breaking up the stairs they might be staying put where they really shouldn't.  It's just a guess but it's the best one I have.

I read the comments on the dev thread... yikes, I can see what you're up against.  Aeon and Sock definitely are opinionated.  A lot of what they're talking makes sense, but would apply better if this were a "from the ground up" map project as opposed to a remake.  I think they're being too heavy handed in the suggestion department as far as flow is concerned.  Part of a map's flow is not just how easy it is to move, but also more tricky areas to navigate.  For instance, the red armor.  I see suggestions to make a quick in-and-out for it.  That defeats the purpose of having it in a precarious spot, same as the MH room needing the switch.  I'll cite Frag Pipe as a great classic example of risk and reward, as it's one of your favorites.  The Quad, armor, mega health, railgun, hyperblaster, and even the invulnerability have risks to get to them.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not a large part of the gameplay on that map the choices players must make as to the timing of taking a risk to get an important item?  You might get the invulnerability just to fall into the lava and have 30 seconds of hot bath water before a toasty death, or get a railgun slug put through you and blow yourself up with the rocket jump a split second later (has happened to me).  I've pinned players going for the mega health and who hasn't toasted someone running through the pipe?  That uncertainty is what makes that map great.  As for fighting on stairs... uneven ground adds a vertical element to the fight, and it's one more element to the gameplay that makes the player think as opposed to just twitch-spamming rockets at peoples' feet.

I think too often players get used to certain kinds of maps and then become a bit too narrowly focused on how they think map flow should be.  I know CPMA maps are designed for constant movement, few stops, lots of trick spots, shortcuts, and more of an emphasis on fast movement and accurate shot placement than situational strategy.  A lot of Q3 maps tend to follow that formula as well, however this is a remake of a Q1 map that already plays a hell of a lot better than the original.  I think most of your own design decisions have been the best ones so far.  I wouldn't go overboard with changes at this point.  Stick with what you feel is best on the map, and take the really good suggestions, like the exit to the pit, and do it your own way.  The brick wreckage was a really good choice there - makes sense, solves the problem, but doesn't change the design.  It's functional but subtle and doesn't really break anything.  I sure as hell wouldn't ruin the map by putting jump pads on it.  Slipgate - Surprised

Regarding visuals... the details on your map are fine.  I don't know the trapezoid thingy that was mentioned, but the broken bricks, etc, all seem to fit.  The only thing I might agree with would be subtle weapon marker points, like some scraped or chipped tile decals, etc.  The level looks just worn out enough to be in a state of semi-decay but not complete disfunction.  Adding more damage would overdo it.  Cripes, this is your second map and it looks this damned good!  I'm not usually one to lay compliments on thick, but I've seen some of Castle's older work and he's pro now, and some of it sucks compared to this.  You really have outdone yourself, and as far as the visuals go, the map is absolutely beautiful.
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« Reply #89 on: 2009-10-22, 00:00 »

Quote
The stairs feel inconsistent being broken up like that.  Aesthetically it looks better on the previous revision.

Hmm, I disagree there. The only reason the stairs are as they are now, is because it looks better to me. I upscaled the entire map, but didn't think about the way that would affect some things. Doorways look fine a tad larger, but the steps look better smaller. I really don't notice any change in gameplay, so I pretty much ignored sock's opinion regarding the matter.

Quote
I read the comments on the dev thread... yikes, I can see what you're up against.  Aeon and Sock definitely are opinionated.

Aye, they voice their opinions pretty extensively. On the plus side, they are also very willing to share their expertise. I'm currently priv-msg'ing back and forth with AEon, who's helping out with the bot issues and vis-blocking to lower r_speeds. These guys have been in the 'business' since Quake 3 was actually still popular, and when in doubt, I tend to trust their view on non-aesthetic matters.

There's also another side to this, that makes me pay more attention to Q3W than I would for tabd2map01. I feel that the map's layout is tight and has good potential to actually work for the kind of gameplay that the people there like. I'm not willing to do things that would go against my own idea of a fun map, but I'm willing to make some jumps easier, or shortcuts available, if an big and active crowd of players prefers this.

Add to that that I care most about the aesthetic side of mapping -- I like creating moody, convincing and hopefully eye-popping levels that catch a particular look that matches the original game. How it plays is secondary to me, so I have no strong opinions on the matter. (That, by the way, is the main reason why I would never have added a jumppad --or even a lift-- to the map, no matter how strongly it was recommended).

The result is that I'm willing to learn about either, but tend to follow experts in gameplay design more easily than I would people voicing their opinions about the looks of the thing. I feel that I can justify that in this case, because there's a pure version to keep the gameflow of Quake. I'd decided very early on that I didn't want to keep that for the non-pure version -- additional changes seem to come naturally.

Finally, the suggestions aren't as extreme as it may seem at first. For example, the request for a change to the RA-alcove didn't include making it easier to get to the item. The RA is at a higher position and it looks like you can make it back to the walkway without swimming -- but you can't, by a hair. That means that circle-jumping back only drops you awkwardly into the water in such a way that it can't but be annoying. If they'd asked to keep the RG/MH-door open and remove the button, I'd not have considered it. That would be too much, and remove the needed danger to get to the items. But in other points, such as shortcuts and added interconnection, I really am willing to listen to these rather opinionated mappers. If it looks good, fits the map and doesn't play any worse for me, I'm willing to consider it.

Summary: a lot of words to simply say that I will make this lean slightly towards the common type of Q3 map, while certainly not doing everything Q3W-people are suggesting.
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« Reply #90 on: 2009-10-22, 07:46 »

I'm certainly not out to say Aeon's or Sock's opinions are invalid as I'm no mapper myself.  When I said "I see what you're up against" I was just rather surprised at the sheer number of suggestions being thrown at you when the gameplay aspect was already fine from my own perspective.  I did not know about the help they were offering in the bot department, or that there were PM's going back and forth to that effect.  I do not know these people so my sampling of information was limited.  I'm glad to see they're as helpful as they are critical.  That's a good combination.  Slipgate - Smile

What you say makes sense, and I better understand your thinking in the design process, which in turn helps me understand what you're gunning for with the non-pure version.  I'll adjust my perspective on the next revision to test with that in mind.
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« Reply #91 on: 2009-10-22, 18:22 »

I thought I was nearly done, but now it seems I've been doing some bad things when clipping and botclipping the map. I'm currently trying to fix that, and every room I change seems to cut the bot-information (in the .aas file) down by many tens of kilobytes. Should in the end fix a lot of the bot stutter, I hope!
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« Reply #92 on: 2009-10-23, 13:17 »

Yup, different way of clipping makes a world of difference:

First, bspc got me:
4486 brushes, 829 Kb .aas and compiled in 101 seconds.
Now, it's only:
1950 brushes, 420 Kb .aas and compiled in 44 seconds.

That should further reduce any hitches and maybe even other bot problems and stupidity!
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« Reply #93 on: 2009-10-23, 16:23 »

Nice!  Perhaps this technique might be helpful in solving the reachablilty glitch with tabd2map01_pure as well?
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #94 on: 2009-10-23, 19:18 »

I'm curious as to this good way of clipping. If it's not hard to describe, it's a bit of information that might be worth knowing about.. being a rather amateur mapper myself.
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« Reply #95 on: 2009-10-23, 22:22 »

It may solve the tabd2map01 problem, but probably more because it involves entirely redoing all the botclipping, rather than any inherent quality. Not looking forward to that, but bugs must be fixed..

The "proper" botclipping process is indeed simple to explain, so here goes:

The logic of it is that apparently, using less brushes is better. Complex solid brushes (and especially patches) that are entirely enclosed in a botclip (or even a playerclip) brush, will be ignored by the botcompiler. The simpler the remaining set of structural brushes, the simpler the .aas can be (and the quicker it compiles).

So if you have a hypothetical level that has all its ceilings at the same height, you'd best begin botclipping by drawing one huge brush over every ceiling, right up to (or even enclosing) your caulk hull (if you were using one). It doesn't matter that it intersects stuff or even if it ends up largely in the void around your level. It also helps to make it as low as it can go without getting noticeable. Bots don't really rocketjump and if they can't even get halfway up to the ceilings, you can really clip a huge chunk of empty space below the roof.
I did this for most of my level, even though not all ceilings are at the same height, and it made quite a difference.

Playerclipping comes first, though, and should be done relatively simple aswell. Most of the guidelines for botclipping work for playerclip aswell. Ofcourse, you wouldn't clip stuff the player actually expects to get to, even if it means rocketjumping, etc.
Basic approach would be: 1) playerclip complicated brushes so the player doesn't get annoyed or trapped by them, 2) enclose the playerclip brushes in an even simpler botclip shell (that completely encloses them), if it simpler it can be.

Guidelines to keep in mind:
- If you can use one botclip brush to do the job of two, use the method with only one.
- Angled or complex botclip brushes complicate the .aas. If you can use big, simple cubes, that's the way to go. This means that you do not miter botclip (or playerclip, for that matter).
- Extend brushes to the botclip-ceiling or floor if they can be without interfering with play. (example: my torches are botclipped with rectangular botclip brushes that extend way up to the big ceiling-botclip brush.)

Other things to consider:
- Clipping stairs as ramps can help, if the ramp stays simple enough.

That's basically it. If you're not sure if something actually helps, just compile the map once with, once without and compare bspc results.
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #96 on: 2009-10-24, 00:10 »

The only thing I'd wonder about stairs-to-ramps is does that affect the bots' physics, or just their navigational logic?  In normal Q3 there's no ramp jumping, but in Gen there is for Slipgate and Strogg, and also CPMA uses ramp physics.  A few other mods might as well.  I know it won't affect normal players unless you playerclip with a ramp, but I wasn't sure about the bots.
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« Reply #97 on: 2009-10-24, 00:49 »

I don't think the bots can do those fancy tricks... the stairs are ramps for the bots, though. With botclip you make real bot-geometry, as well as the logical space for them to work in.
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« Reply #98 on: 2009-10-24, 02:44 »

I wasn't meaning deliberate trick jumping, I was simply referring to inherent movement physics.  So if you were to put a bot clip that blocked a passageway and launched a bot into the air with a rocket explosion, the bot would smack against it just like a solid wall?
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« Reply #99 on: 2009-10-24, 03:11 »

Aye, that's the idea. It's like the bots are running around in a different map from you. They can walk on botclip brushes, crash into them, etc. I don't actually know what happens if a func_bobbing or _rotate or the like pushes a bot into a clipbrush, but my guess is that it'll go *splat* as if there'd been a normal wall..
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