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Wirehead Studios > Wirehead Modifications > Generations Arena > Strogg Questions / Requests
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MantiCore
 
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« on: 2004-03-08, 22:27 »
I recently played through all of Quake2 single player and played multiplayer on LAN. Had a great time and remembered why Quake2 is my favorite game, period  Slipgate - Laugh

Anyway, I decided to compare Generations and Quake 2 Multiplayer (in case any weapon properties were changed for Multi...none that I noticed).  

While comparing the two, the first and most noticible difference is the Hyperblaster.  The Spindown time in Generations is roughly 4-6 seconds, while Quake2's is only 2-3. That may not sound like a lot, but when trying to switch to another weapon and having to wait that extra 3 seconds, its killer.  The projectiles also come out a bit late and lagged and seem quite a bit slower than Quake2's.  

Next is the machinegun. While (according to the weapons page) it does the same damange and has the same fire rate as the Earth Machinegun....the Earth one seems to do a little more..has Earth's damage been pumped up or Stroggs been gimped since those pages were made?  The machinegun did 9 -11 damage to a unarmored foe in Quake2 (damage rose after more hits in a row). It does 8 plain in Gen. I think a little boost in damage would even it out.  

Last, but not least, is the rocket launcher.  While the damage seemed near-identical to Quake2s(maybe even a little more), the speed of the rocket seemed severly slowed down.  Because the rockets travel so slow, the gun is kind of pointless, unless close up. The rockets should travel quite a bit faster (though not so much that it goes at the same rate as Arenas...but a little under).  

I could be wrong or off base, but I do view Strogg as the most gimped class.  Strogg is my favorite class, but unless you have a Railgun, Super Shotgun or Grenade Launcher (or hand grenades), you're kind of running around with your pants down (or taking a great risk trying to use the hyperblaster or rocket launcher). I hope to see some tweaks made to the class for future versions.


P.S. I know its a constant complaint / want, but um..could you start Strogg's weapon animations after you're done revamping Slipgates?  Thumbs up!
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ConfusedUs
 

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« Reply #1 on: 2004-03-08, 22:42 »
No animations have been done yet that aren't already in Gen. None. Zilch. And won't be till the code is in place. Period.

As for the rest, the timing on the hyperblast spindown is correct to q2's code. If you're going to time things, we need more specific than 4-6 seconds. That's a huge gap there. I'm not sure what you mean by 'late' and 'lagged'. The whine sound starts shortly before the projectiles start, but the actual firing sound starts when the first projectile comes out.

The speed of things seeming slower is simply due to the increased scale of the maps. Slipgates nails seem slower (even tho they're the same speed as the RL, which everyone says is too fast...), so do Strogg rockets and Hyperblaster bolts. Stroggs rockets are probably the best for close-in rocket dancing. Doom's are good, but only if you can avoid blowing yourself up in the process. Strogg doesn't really have that problem.

We took out random damage values in Gen. If we put them back in, we'd have Doom shotguns that do anywhere from 100 to 300+ damage per shot, among other problems. As for the machinegun seemnig less effective than the mp40, they do the same damage, at the same fire rate. The only difference might be spread, which I'll look at next time I start Gen.

Strogg is NOT a gimped class. As the guys in #wirehead about me + Strogg. Strogg is insanely powerful when used right, but the player MUST know what weapon to use when. Strogg has very good mobility as well, if you can strafe-jump properly.

However, Strogg is sensitive to map layout. If  his best weapons are hard to get to or heavily trafficed, he's gonna be hurting. Good maps for Strogg include q1e1m7 (House of Cthon), Overwhelming Hostility, Simply Dead,  Scrap Metal ][ and H2SO4.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #2 on: 2004-03-10, 04:56 »
Quote from: MantiCore
  While comparing the two, the first and most noticible difference is the Hyperblaster.  The Spindown time in Generations is roughly 4-6 seconds, while Quake2's is only 2-3. That may not sound like a lot, but when trying to switch to another weapon and having to wait that extra 3 seconds, its killer.  The projectiles also come out a bit late and lagged and seem quite a bit slower than Quake2's.

The projectile speed is 1000 units, same as in Q2, and Carmack said himself that game units have not changed in scale since Wolfenstein 3D.  Frames are handled for firing purposes the same as Q2, EXCEPT for weapon switching.  Right now the Q3-style weapon switching is still in effect.  If you run out of AMMO, yes, there's a 500 ms delay, same as any other gun.  That will be changed when frames code is finalized and not halfway hacked in.  Spindown, however, is 100% identical, frame for frame.

Quote
Next is the machinegun. While (according to the weapons page) it does the same damange and has the same fire rate as the Earth Machinegun....the Earth one seems to do a little more..has Earth's damage been pumped up or Stroggs been gimped since those pages were made?  The machinegun did 9 -11 damage to a unarmored foe in Quake2 (damage rose after more hits in a row). It does 8 plain in Gen. I think a little boost in damage would even it out.

For the damage, just compare it on the weapons stats page.  I can dispell this belief that the machinegun did random damage in Q2 however.  I have the source code, and the damage does NOT change per hit.  It is a static 8 units in the code.  Also, the chaingun in Q2 only did 6 damage per bullet.  We've coded the Strogg chaingun to do 8 damage per bullet, same as the machinegun.  My advice if you're having trouble killing people with the machinegun is to get a bigger gun.

Quote
Last, but not least, is the rocket launcher.  While the damage seemed near-identical to Quake2s(maybe even a little more), the speed of the rocket seemed severly slowed down.  Because the rockets travel so slow, the gun is kind of pointless, unless close up. The rockets should travel quite a bit faster (though not so much that it goes at the same rate as Arenas...but a little under).

Again, the math is identical to Q2.  The rockets flew at 650 units/second in Q2, and they fly that speed in Gen.  Q2's gameplay was quite slow, and the rockets were still only useful close up there too unless you got a lucky spam shot in.  I've played enough Rocket Arena to know this.  Gen has two fast classes with a lot of firepower, so of course the rockets will feel a tad sluggish when put in comparrison.  Strogg's rockets are VERY damaging, but you have to be extremely accurate with them.  Get in close, and aim for the feet.

I think a lot of this comes down to cross-class feel more than anything else.  When we put a Strogg-only DM match together you might find some of those weapons a bit more effective.  I've played a lot of Q2 deathmatch, and I have no trouble using the Strogg Trooper effectively in Gen matches.
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« Reply #3 on: 2004-03-10, 07:20 »
As do I - nor is it just railing for me either, that chaingun is devastating as hell, just like in the original :]
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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